FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[B&A]

Hello, I'm 27yrs, always been fascinated by the beauty of nature. Especially most by the rocks, minerals and fossils.
I must admit I know very little about this subject, I'm a newbie.
But I think the time has come now to change this!!
I want to learn as much as possible, by reading, reasearching, exploring, collecting..
But, I just do not know where to begin, there is so much information and different specimens... Heeelllppp :)

Yesterday i bought my first book "Deltas gids voor mineralen en edelstenen by Schumann, Walter" (in dutch) Which i think is a good start, there are a lot of different specimens in it with their Crystal structure, mohs scale; color, streak,...

And the only mineral i have in my collection is from the natural history museum London, a 'frosted' desert rose from chihuahua Mexico.
I'm really looking for some reliable online sellers (ebay store or online shop)

[Tobi]

Hi and welcome to our community!

If you have many questions and if your are searching for help, support and answers - this is the right place :-) Only the thing about the online sellers should not be discussed in public, i think. But any other questions about minerals are most welcome!

Cheers!
Tobi

P.S. Walter Schumann is a very known German author, my first mineral books were also written by him. His books are really good for beginners.

[B&A]

Thanks!!
I did give the forum a quick browse last week, and you are right, there are much experienced people in here. This is also the reason I joined..

And totally agree with the seller part !
i was not intending to start a discussion about sellers...
It's just not easy for a starter to know what's real or fake. And if there are people that want to share some honest sellers, put it in a PM plz.

[Debbie Woolf]

Hello B&A

Welcome to a friendly & helpful forum. Yes it is a bit of a 'mine field' out there (excuse the pun), ebay is good for bargains but you have to be careful in what you buy. There is also mindat with lots of photos and localities to help. You should get yourself a few tools like a fluorescent light to check for glue and a non-glazed porcelain tile to use as a scratch plate.

It would be nice to know your name, to respond to, you will have noticed the experienced people on this forum do give their name.

[Maxilos]

"Welkom" from the Netherlands!

It's a very good book: "Deltas gids voor mineralen en edelstenen", I've got it too.

Is there any chance you going to Antwerp next sunday?

Greetings,

Mark

[B&A]

[Jordi Fabre]

[Peter Megaw]

B&A....Welcome aboard...there's a lot to learn and enjoy in mineralogy...but it is disturbing that the first things you're hearing about are how to avoid getting sold fakes, repaired and sub-standard specimens. Unfortunately this reflects on how common it is for newbies (your self-descriptiion) to get burned. The good news is that with guidance you will get past that stage (hopefully cheaply) and learn to recognize for yourself what is natural and what isn't. The reality is that there is a lot of manipulation of specimens out there...especially at the top and bottom of the market.

At the top it is often nefarious as less than scrupulous dealers try to get top dollar by passing off manipulated pieces as natural. This happens all along the line...from the miners (who often construct specimens), through the middlemen (who often disclose repairs to their customers...who may or may not pass that information on) to the final dealer (who may conveniently forget to pass on the repair disclosute or may "adjust" the locality for greater rarity). You'll need to learn how to recognize these... Sinkankis's "Gemstone and Mineral Databook" has an excellent section on recognizing fakes, but not surprisingly keeping your eyes open (aided by a good handlens) is often the best defence.

At the bottom of the market (where we all start) things are worse because much of the material is processed for sale at low price points in gift shops with no real expectation that anyone will take the specimen seriously from a scientific standpoint. This includes chalcopyrite treated chemically to give bright colors and masquerade as bornite, specimens treated with "luster in a can" ( = oiled), low-grade amethyst cooked to turn it into yellow "citrine", calcite washed in acid to make it shine and all kinds of gaudy dyed agates. All of these are sold to an uncritical public with no disclosure or even thought that anyting is amiss.

You have already fallen victim to a very common manipulation (see below) passed on through what one would think should be a reliable source of natural material...a Natural History Museum gift shop. One would think that with all the high-level scientists around thiis would be safe, but most museum gift shops are run by a concessionaire who stocks what attracts them that they can turn over quickly at reasonable (low) prices. They buy from the same wholesalers as supply airport gift shops and with about as much thought put into what they sell....and often with no museum oversight to speak of. In the case of mineral specimens, the mineral scientists at the museum usually have little or nothing to say about what is selected for sale. (Curiously, the paleontologists often do complain about the sale of ANY real fossils, even common and abundant ones...and they are often listened to)

The short message is that "caveat emptor" follows you everywhere.

The manipulation you have fallen victim to is common and relatively innocuous. The "sand selenites" or "desert rose" gypsum groups from Chihuahua are collected in large numbers with minimal care. The edges of many crystals get bumped or broken in the process creating whitish bruises. It was learned years ago that it was easy to hide these bruises...and add a nice "frosted" contrast to the overall specimens... by gently waving a propane torch over the edges. This causes the gypsum to dehydrate slightly and become whitish. It takes a little practise to do it right, but I have seen yards filled with such specimens treated in a few hours. If you have one of those nifty creme brulee torches you can do this for yourself!

[B&A]

[Riccardo Modanesi]

Hi! Welcome from Italy too! I know perfectly the book of W.Schumann, the Italian title is "Guida Alle Gemme Del Mondo"! It's a very well done opera, I learnt so much from it!
There is time to tell us each other many things more!
Greetings from italy by Riccardo.

[GneissWare]

You can look on the-vug.com for a list of internet dealers -- are they all good and honest -- probably. The website owner, Justin, does not tolerate fakes, and has a whole section on fakes he has found on the internet. You may find it instructional. Some fakes are obvious, and others are very sophisticated. Everyone gets burned at one point or another, no matter how long they have been collecting.

As to your desert rose -- if you like it, don't worry about if it has been abraded or otherwise treated to enhance. Just enjoy it for what it is.

[B&A]

Thanks all!!

Just bought a complete collection (155pcs.) from someone who stops.
I'll get them tomorrow.
I will start a topic in the "my collection" forum section soon.

[Joseph DOliveira]

Hi B&A,
I am a mineral dealer, have worked in geology related fields for the last 37 years and still get fooled from time to time by manipulated mineral specimens. I recently returned from the Tucson Mineral show and many fakes were evident, especially in the fossil markets. It's gotten to the point where I will no longer carry fossil inventory in my business, unless I can purchase from a dealer that I am comfortable with.

For the most part, mineral dealers are honest people trying to earn a living like everyone else and conduct their business in that fashion. Many of the minerals that are sold these days have been manipulated to some degree or other. Raw specimens from the field are generally not very aesthetic unless they have been cleaned, trimmed and some etched in acid to remove unwanted material. Tools such as micro abraders, sand blasters and high pressure water sprays are used to remove saw cut marks or unwanted mineral coatings or trim excessive matrix.

Most of these methods are accepted as they only enhance the aesthetic nature of the specimen without altering the principal minerals of interest. For most dealers, repaired specimens are identified on the labelled as such, so that the client knows up front that a repair was done. Unfortunately, the online market has opened the flood gates for the prevalence of fakes and many auction and other sites are not equipped to handle the volume of traffic in these fakes.

All I can suggest is that you approach your collecting with a certain amount of caution initially. If you are not planning to spend excessive amounts on individual specimens, the lesson of buying a fake will be a lot less painful. Once you have met and developed relationships with dealers and other collectors, you will be better equipped to spot the obvious fakes and forgeries that are around. Like any other economic endeavor study a little, proceed with a little caution, most importantly get out and collect, for in the end the experience of collecting your own specimens often becomes more memorable than the actual specimens collected.

[arturo shaw]

Hello from Luxembourg,

Depending on where in Belgium you are you should try any of the local fairs, there are plenty of interesting minerals there. Liege is, perhaps, the most interesting. There are many collectors and minerals hunters in Belgium and some clubs too.

Good luck

Arturo

[B&A]

Hi Arturo

I am in the West Flanders, completly the other side of Belgium :)
Luxembourg, I visited it a few times in the past, very nice place!!
Do you think it is possible to collect some micro minerals in luxembourg or the Ardennes? For example, around rivers, on the rocks,... Or is or is there nothing to be found?

I'm also looking for a club, not too far from home.