FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Bob Carnein]

The fact is that most mineral specimens have no intrinsic value. The value is whatever we say it is. It's based on a complex web of things that depends on the individual collector's experience and interests. If somebody likes to know the provenance of his or her specimens, then he or she may be willing to pay more for that Who's to judge? Provenance is also a part of the history of our hobby; who's to know what information about a specimen may be of interest to future collectors?

Remember, too, that vanity is involved in mineral collecting, just as it is in almost everything modern human beings do. We may deny it, but most of us want to be remembered after we go back to Mother Earth.

[Fiebre Verde]

Every collector has a different profile.

I don’t pay much attention to labels because of the way I assemble my collection (although I do have some labels from you Jordi which I preciously keep along with the minerals I bought from you!). Fortunately I have a job that keeps me traveling and I get the vast majority of my minerals almost directly from the source (sort of). And I work hard to label them… digitally! (for inventory purposes).

At the end of the day, as long as the price is convenient I purely rely on aesthetic criteria where labels cannot be much of a help. The added sentimental bonus might come from the little story behind the transaction but unfortunately this does not seem to happen often enough!

[Don Lum]

[Greg Lilly]

Hello,
This made me think about my own collection and my posts on this forum so here are my thoughts. I personally don't purchase specimens because they have been owned by someone else, I make selections based on criteria which are important to me. If I choose something which has been owned by a previous collector that I know it is an added bonus but not a purchasing criteria. I don't display or promote this information in any way but keep the old labels and note it in my cataloging to give the next owner a more complete picture of the specimens history. I don't think a premium price should be paid because of a previous owner.
A personal exception, on my collection page in this forum I have several New Zealand pieces where I have noted the previous owner or person who collected it. I did this more to 'celebrate' them and the information really only has relevance in NZ. Also, I have done a lot of field collecting locally and I wanted to distinguish those pieces from MY own.
There is definitely some level of bragging value attached to specimens obtained from collectors who are ( or were if they are deceased ) held in high esteem by fellow collectors but that can often only be relevant locally or within a small group of people. That actually makes it more special for me.
Greg

[crocoite]

Hi Tracy

I agree with much of what has been said. However, here are a few of my thoughts:

- As an artist, I have to say I like the "artiness" in many old labels.
- Most collectors will only pay what they think is the right price regardless, although there are some that will pay a premium for bragging rights.
- I bought a specimen from Jordi in Tucson last year. It has a few things going for it. Firstly it is a very nice campylite from Dry Gill. I have a fondness for Cumbrian minerals. Secondly it has a Harrod's label. I had no idea that the famous Harrod's store ever sold minerals. So I learnt something, and found this amusing. Thirdly the price I paid was right for me for the specimen.
- I have three Russell specimens, and in all three instances, the labels are much more aesthetic than the minerals!
- A while back, I received a batch of New Zealand micros from a friend in the US. He had originally received them from Jocelyn Thornton in the 1980s. Jocelyn, also a good friend, remembers sending them.

[Antonio Alcaide]

Nice topic "to have a breakfast with".

Well, as a collector -pay attention I say "collector", not "mineral collector"-, a label is another collectible object. I can easily imagine people collecting only labels -I do not want to suggest ideas :-) As we have discussed in the past, the collector is a human being eager to collect everything, so " two collections better than one". Of course, a label without the provenance is a poor label in this context.

I think it is not worth paying much more for specimens with labels with the provenance, but a full label can lead me to purchase the specimen. I love rich-content labels that provide the history of the specimen. I like to hold a specimen that comes from a museum or a deceased collector. I would like there is a worldwide database for collections and collectors as well as another one for analyzed specimens.

My Sinkankas' Mineralogy comes with a stamp of the University of Baltimore Library ¿? "Baltimore" evokes me classic American movies -I live in Europe you know and I have never travelled to USA-, b&w old pictures, the genuine american flavour... what gives the book more value doubtless.

Regards

[John S. White]

This thread has generated a lot of very interesting comments and observations, including one that has long troubled me and that is that the overemphasis on provenance by collectors is sure to lead to chicanery on the part of some dealers. By this I mean the adding of labels to specimens that came from other specimens. I am not suggesting that this practice is widespread but we all know that it occurs. For this reason I find very troubling the listing of former owners of specimens in photo captions with articles in journals (ex SoAndSo collection, ex Joe Doe collection, ex Jane Doe collection, etc.). In my view this only increases the idea that former ownership matters more than it should. And when several former owners are listed one has to wonder why the mineral has been passed around like a hot potato. I would encourage editors to list only the current ownership of a specimen figured in an article, unless there is some compelling reason to do otherwise.

[crocoite]

Good point John. Maybe 15 years ago, a friend of mine travelled to Tucson and had the good fortune to locate three cerussite specimens from the Comet Mine, Dundas, Tasmania, and to repatriate them. One was a large v-twin, and the other two simply smaller uglier aggregates of white crystals, still typical of the mine. The smallest one came with a museum label and they had received it a bit over 100 years ago. Unfortunately, a dealer married the label with the large v-twin in order to enhance its value. Fortunately, I had photographed the label, a copy of which is with the original specimen along with a note to this effect. Both that specimen and the copy of the label are in my collection.

I did hear, but don't know if it is true, that the v-twin split into 2 parts prior to its intended sale. Karma perhaps?

[Roger Warin]

Hello John,
It is a fact that I had not thought of. Thank you for notifying us. I will take this advice, at least for ordinary specimens.
Roger.

[Michael Shaw]

As others have previously said, this is an interesting thread. I certainly agree with much of what has been said. Just the fact that a mineral specimen has been in the collection of a well-known collector is not a reason for that specimen to command a ridiculous sum of money. That said, I really value knowing the provenance of a particular specimen. Elsewhere in this forum, I have shown a heulandite specimen from Berufjord, Iceland which I acquired several years ago. The specimen is accompanied by a Smithsonian label which denoted that it was part of the Roebling Collection. I do enjoy knowing that Roebling once owned this piece, and whenever I handle this specimen, I think of him and his collection that became a part of one of our great public institutions. The history associated with this piece enhances my appreciation of the specimen if not its value.
Michael

[Riccardo Modanesi]

Hi to everybody!
What Tracy wrote is very interesting in my opinion too!
But...what's my opinion? My opinion is a piece has it's own history to tell us, for what kind of mineral it belongs to, for where it comes from (mine/quarry, geology/environment, former collection, etc.). Of course not everybody's name is Renè Just Haùy or Charles Linnè, nor does everyones collection belong to the National Natural History Museum. I know many people collecting minerals not by species, but by provenance, thus taking the issue "I have no specimen from the Cayman Islands", for example. Finally, I remember a member of this forum who always shows us his very interesting collection of historical labels, as well as his minerals! Am I right, Tobi?
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.

[Jordi Fabre]

[James Catmur]

I find old labels interesting, as they do help me know a bit about the history and that is nice. So an Arthur Russel label is nice to have (especially given how nicely written they are) since it adds some history, as was a Heuland label I saw recently in a museum collection (as it gives an idea of the age of the specimen).

But I have always worried about labels being moved between specimens and thus about 'fake' old labels. Is the specimen really from that locality or has an old label been moved to help it look that way? I know that can happen with new labels - but if the old label if used to prove it is from there, then can I trust that the label and specimen are really related?

Would I pay more for an old label - I suppose I might if it showed that it was from a classic locality, but then I would (and still do) worry about relying on that.

James

[alfredo]

In old collections, and museum specimens, there was usually a number painted directly on the specimen, or written in black ink in a spot of white enamel, that matches a number on the label. You may be able to tell by the nature of the paint whether it's old. If no number is present on the specimen, it might still be really associated with the proffered label, but all bets are off.

In the rare species subculture of the mineral collecting world, big old clunkers are often broken up into smaller pieces, and then of course only one person can get the original label with their piece. The rest might get a photocopy of it, or just a footnote on a new label, depending on whether the dealer judges the value of the piece to be worth the trouble.