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Vitaliy
Joined: 30 Nov 2014
Posts: 52
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 Posted: Feb 07, 2015 21:00 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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| keldjarn wrote: | I am also in Tucson this year having visited most shows since 1991. I am also astonished by many of the prices of relatively ordinary specimens of common minerals. But it is not only a question of increase in prices. The whole market is changing with showy decorator specimens completely dominating the show. I have been walking around for days and it has become increasingly difficult to find what I after 50 years of systematic collecting of high quality, mineralogicially interesting and unique specimen consider interesting mineral specimens. What is sold here now at astronomil prices is to a less extent works of nature - and to larger extent the result of skillfull preparatpry work and display techniques. The number of different species offered on the shelves have decreaed dramaticlly over the years. The dealers are all competing in selling the same kind of specimens to the new breed of investor style collectors. Personlly I get tired of looking at the same type of tourmaline, quartz and beryl specimens with multiple K prices. It may be my last show here. To me the magic is gone.
Knut |
I have been to Tucson before in the better years before the current Economic depression and I will say it was a better experience than what I am seeing and reading about here. Greed and Profitability is the number one game and interest especially for the higher end dealers. How else can they justify these kind of pricing schemes that equate a specimen to more than a brand new car. I also strongly dislike seeing many of the same common species being displayed whereas rare species are hidden in a forgotten lot or flat.
| Carles Millan wrote: | | I think there is a growing divergence between mineral collectors interested mainly in the scientific side of the hobby and those who are only gathering pieces of Nature artwork the same way other (wealthier) people purchase sculptures and paintings. Many of the latter also take minerals as an investing. Dealers, especially the high end ones, obviously prefer the customers that have the deepest pocket, who are numerous, so the larger shows increasingly offer more high priced specimens (works of art) and tend at the same time to expel the budget collectors. |
The reality is that with the growing disparity and growing wealth inequality especially in America mineral collectors are being marginalized and alienated on the lower and mid-end tiers for affordability in terms of specimens. The reality is that the average median household income has dropped by nearly $5,000 since 2007 for American households and coupled with "REAL" (not government reported) unemployment , debt and inflation figures we see an increasing trend towards artization of specimens. If this trend continues perhaps within a decade only the most wealthy will be able to afford mineral specimens while the rest of us will be struggling to find any jobs or even a source of income let alone a mineral specimen. This would mean that the 1800's has returned where only the wealthy or nobility could afford specimens.
| GneissWare wrote: | There is certainly a group of collectors that are investing in mineral art, and dealers that cater to them. The very select specimens bought/sold by this group demand what many of us see as stunningly high prices.
But, the great interest in such specimens means it is profitable for dealers and others to mine for specimens. We all know that spectacular and perfect and aesthetic specimens occur only rarely. For every one of these, hundreds of very good and potentially many more hundreds of representative specimens are produced, which do find their way into the marketplace where us mere mortals can afford them.
So, I consider myself fortunate to be able to procure great, but not perfect, specimens I once never believed possible to have, largely because some people are willing to invest in works of nature/mineral art. How many great Helvites were available 10 years ago at under $1000? Not just good ones -- great ones!
For example, none of the beautiful Sweet Home Rhodos would have been available for low 4-figure and high 3-figure money unless there were people willing to spend $100,000+ for a truly spectacular specimen. Yes, I know that some of these specimens are now over $1000+, but the law of supply and demand controls. There were only a few hundred very nice specimens, so limited supply leads to higher price if there is demand. Obviously there is demand as they sell.
Some of the arguments being raised about common minerals are like comparing apples and oranges. How much is a 10x8x8 cm Galena specimen with 3 cm crystals worth? Doesn't it depend? If it is a piece from Bulgaria, one of many thousands, it has some value which also depends on factors like quality and aesthetics. Based on some of the arguments, it should only be worth $50 or $100 maybe, because it is just a common mineral. But, how much should the same Galena from Neudorf, Germany be worth? The same as one from Bulgaria. Maybe to some people, but not many folks I know. Neudorf pieces are much rarer and thus, based simply on supply and demand, will and should command a higher price. So, whether a mineral is a common species has little or on bearing on the value. |
There is not just a group whereby it sounds like you are downplaying or minimizing the reality that dealers are catering more and more to wealthier or investor type collectors. I have personal experience where I have seen shows also mostly cater to the higher end collector or pricing for even common species have risen by 10-100x. Take for example at the Bancroft Gemboree an Amazonite/Smoky Quartz thumbnail was selling for $1800 which is close to 100x the real or actual price. That's not just a limited example either.
The majority of collectors are normal people either in the lower or middle classes (just like the 99%) and can only spend up to $100 per specimen. They have families or have normal jobs where they don't get paid a sports athlete or even six-digits ransoms.
The arguments being raised about common minerals are valid whether or not it is questioned. Galena is Galena and it doesn't matter whether it comes from a different locality or not. The only difference may be in the locality name and the appearance or the association of the specimens. Just because a locality is rare or exhausted does not command or even deserve a massive markup. I would much rather buy a Galena from Bulgaria than a smaller and pricier specimen from Germany just because it is rarer. Galena is an extremely common species and material coming from Bulgaria can easily rival other localities in my opinion. So yes it is comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges because the species is still the same. Also supply and demand for Galena overall worldwide is high so you cannot simply mention supply and demand from one less common locality.
| GneissWare wrote: | | Fiebre Verde wrote: | Sorry for the naive question - I have never attended Tucson.
But from what I heard and read, I had the impression that Tucson was catering for all budgets and tastes. Is that spirit gone also? |
There are wholesalers to high end retail. With a bit of work, looking at many dealers, there are many great deals to be found. |
I also disagree here especially if you are a foreign collector or traveller. With the recent fall of the Euro and other currencies in comparison to the USD it means you have to spend more of your countries currency than you normally would. This is not including air-fare , lodging , accommodations , food , entertainment etc...
Even then for Americans as I mentioned earlier the best situation was pre-2007/2008 before the onset of the current Economic depression for mineral acquisition and in terms of price-wise the 1960's before "Artization" of minerals occurred from the 1970's and onwards.
Yes deals can still be found but the price/quality ratio is not what it used to be.
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crocoite
Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Posts: 490
Location: Ballarat, Victoria
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| Posted: Feb 07, 2015 22:17 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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I found a couple of specimens that I paid less than half of the price listed on a 2005 label. Yes, exchange rates hurt but I have still found a number of bargains. I am having a great time!
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Steve
Mineral Collector and Artist |
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Gail
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 5839
Location: Texas, Lone Star State.
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| Posted: Feb 09, 2015 02:16 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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Jim and I bought a large wonderful Chinese Fluorite today, about 20 inches by 20 inches and in great shape. No oil, no repairs. The dealer has hauled it for fifteen years and was excited to pull it out from under the table skirt to show us. We bought it, for the price it was fifteen years ago! They were tired of hauling it around.
We have said no to things we feel are common minerals that are, in our opinion, overpriced.But will pay well for something "significant" for our collection. I love a bargain, seen plenty of them around the show and in some of the tent set ups. I see prices to suit everyone here. If you are willing to spend time looking, you will find great deals. And I always ask "What's the best you can do?" and when they tell me, I have the option to buy, or not buy.
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Vinoterapia
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 181
Location: Houston, Tx
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| Posted: Feb 09, 2015 09:30 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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Every person has the freedom to spend his/her money the way he/she wants, so if the price is adequate for that person, why not buy a particular piece.
Since my purchase means are rather modest (pathetic might be a better term), I found myself shifting into microminerals, and hence into photographing those tiny specimens. When I see the price sticker in any of the posted photos, I can not help but wonder the equipment that I can buy (microscope, camera, lenses, adapters, etc, etc) with the money asked for those minerals.
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Pierre Joubert
Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1605
Location: Western Cape
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| Posted: Feb 09, 2015 10:34 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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| crocoite wrote: | | I found a couple of specimens that I paid less than half of the price listed on a 2005 label. Yes, exchange rates hurt but I have still found a number of bargains. I am having a great time! |
Hi Crocoite. I had to chuckle when I read ' exchange rates hurt '. The Australian $ is worth .78 US $. One US $ = 0.086 South African Rand. For us South Africans, it is near impossible to buy mineral specimens from other countries. We swop. At the same time it is wonderful for us when we sell specimens abroad as we get paid in US $.
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Pierre Joubert
'The tree of silence bears the fruit of peace. ' |
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Peter Van Hout
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 39
Location: Flanders
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| Posted: Feb 09, 2015 19:37 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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| Gail wrote: | | I love a bargain, seen plenty of them around the show and in some of the tent set ups. |
I think that those bargains only looks like they are bargains because we are already take these ridiculous prices as a standard.
I am shocked anyway.
Peter
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Gail
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 5839
Location: Texas, Lone Star State.
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| Posted: Feb 09, 2015 20:35 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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I went to a local mineral show near Dallas, bought a bunch of great material for hardly anything, the dealers were thrilled, we were thrilled, everyone was happy. So, if Tucson is too much, then stick to local shows and get those great bargains from dealers who don't charge huge amounts because they don't pack up and travel, pay for hotels, meals, etc. There are little shows with some great material, much of it old material, that you cannot find anymore. Good trading stock!
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Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 5027
Location: Barcelona
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| Posted: Feb 22, 2015 09:04 Post subject: Tucson, questionable prices? - Some personal thoughts |
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Some people told me to publish here this post, previously published in Tucson Show 2015 - Some personal thoughts so here it is :
| In Tucson Show 2015 - Some personal thoughts Jordi Fabre wrote: |
OK, here I am sitting in front an empty white computer screen and I'm not sure if I can translate in written text the kind of dementia that is Tucson.
"Gigantic" "Crazy" "Excessive" - all of these words and much more can be used to describe the phenomenon of Tucson, but no one can really understand what Tucson is without being there and feeling (and in some way suffer) its thumping intensity. Tucson is beyond comparison with any other mineral show. Neither Munich, Denver nor Ste. Marie can compare with this hungry monster chewing up all of the dreams, money and hopes of so many collectors.
What I can say about Tucson 2015?
Can I describe the good feelings of many dealers (compared to previous years) or the desperation of others?
Can I describe the phenomenal purchases that some wealthy collectors made in Tucson or the disappointment of many other humble collectors who can afford almost nothing that they really like?
Can I describe the physical impossibility to attend all of the events or the pleasure from attending some stupendous parties, talks, social events, awards or ceremonies?
Can I describe the kind of unnatural bubble which is Tucson moving away from the real world, or the pleasure of being for some days outside of the common troubles of our daily life while enjoying a kind of communal excitation?
Sorry, but after more than 25 years attending this show I can't find a proper way to describe what Tucson really is, so this year what I will do is to try to simplify and summarize my thoughts about the most popular topic in Tucson every year: "Why hell the are prices so high?" ;-)
I am a dealer and a collector as well so for many years I guessed that the mineral world of the collector was perhaps going in a wrong way and that this wrong way could bring to all us to a kind of collapse, mental or economic. From time to time, and mostly in the European shows, I still have this pessimistic feeling, but the dynamism of regular Internet sales and the brutal energy of the Tucson Show tends to clear my mind of this negative feeling and, although I'm not totally sure about it, now I am starting to believe that this hobby seems to be influenced by the same market laws that influence many other major hobbies, and that currently the number of buyers of very fine specimens seems to be quite higher than the real number of fine specimens in the market. Very elevated prices for these fine specimens are now with us and maybe will not decrease in the future. Another topic is why so many lesser specimens have such inflated prices, but this is another story…
So, are there no chances for the not very rich collectors, like myself? Well, yes, there are still some chances, but instead of remaining immobile complaining about too high prices what we should do is work harder, looking at all dealers, all stocks, all boxes, all remote places, in fact doing everything in order to try to find something available within our limited possibilities. Just walk and walk and walk and walk and watch and watch, and watch again, to finally find something we like that we can afford.
No more complaints! Collectors, move your asses and work, the reward is there! Do many prices look too expensive to you? Forget these prices and search for something with a better balance! In Tucson you can play this game because the show is so huge that everybody can have a chance, but you must forget your dreams to acquire a "Master Piece" for a cheap price for the same reason that you can't purchase a Picasso for a modest price. Due to the different style of the new wave of collectors (many quite young but very rich) who seem to consider minerals as "natural art," you are in the same league with art buyers, even if you do not like it. Thus very high prices for the best, with just some very limited opportunities to find bargains, and only if you have a really extensive knowledge of what you are collecting.
I disagree with the feeling that many collectors have who believe that dealers have a kind of wonderful life doing almost nothing. Myself and many other dealers that I know work extremely hard, we do not have a peaceful and easy life at all. For me, after a monumental effort for more than a month, an effort that most people will never experience, I'm finally back at home, exhausted, missing greatly my "normal life," and with just a little money in my pocket after paying the never ending invoices that such a large show generates. Then, you may ask, why do I do this? Am I a masochist? Of course not. I do this for the rewards I derive. Together with "some money" I also brought home to Barcelona some, not many, but some, lovely rocks that I will add to my collection and, in fact, this is the same reason why so many collectors attend Tucson year after year, and this is our real reward.
Forget the easy-funny images published in this and other Forums or social net sites supply. They are just the "tip of the iceberg," the reality of the Tucson Show is much more complex and sophisticated than this and only if you attend Tucson can you discover what I'm talking about. So why don't you discover this overreaching bazaar at least one time? Believe me, it is an experience and you will never forget it!
Jordi
PS:Thanks to John White for editing and clarifying this text to try to make comprehensible to English readers the efforts of my overwhelmed, non-English, brain.
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Jesse Fisher
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 639
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Feb 22, 2015 14:05 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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Well said, Jordi.
I've always thought of the post-Tucson bout of complaining about prices as just a part of the ritual. It has been going on every year since I have been involved in the business, and I suspect it began the first time a specimen changed hands for money. This year, however, I came to the conclusion that we can no longer afford to acquire the sort of specimens that we have had access to in the past. This is a disappointment, but should we just whinge on and feel sorry for ourselves? Times change, things move on. The hobby has increasingly switched focus in recent years from the pursuit of objects of scientific and historical curiosity to the pursuit of "natural art." And "art" attracts a more wealthy crowd than science ever will.
I feel fortunate to be involved with the hobby/business as a producer, as well as a collector. Because of the nature of what the mine gives us, the business is aimed largely at the wholesale market, which is thriving beyond all expectations (suggesting there is a huge, unmet demand for such things in the marketplace). It is an expensive business, mining, and not necessarily one that a bunch of old farts will be the best at. But each year, when the Tucson experience comes to a close, we return to our "normal lives," dead tired, with "some money" in the bank and a couple specimens for the personal collection. That "some money" is quickly spent returning to the mine for another summer. One of these years the mine may decide not to give us anything. One of these years our bodies may decide they've had enough of the hard physical work. But until then, I can continue to participate in and enjoy the Tucson experience despite the fact that I can no longer purchase specimens the way I once did.
When faced with changes that we're not happy about, it is all too easy to fall into the trap of self-pity. I may be as disappointed as others at the unaffordability of good specimens today, but I really think the whining and complaining ritual that follows Tucson each year serves little purpose. I am reminded of a fellow named Skoop Nisker, who did the news for a long-departed "alternative" radio station here in SF. He always finished his broadcast by saying: "and if you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own." If one doesn't like the perceived direction that the hobby/business is headed, then get out and do something about it. Write articles, support journals and museums, dig some rocks. You may not change the world by yourself but I suspect it will be much more enjoyable than just complaining about what you can't afford to do any more.
Cheers!
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Peter
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
Posts: 346
Location: Sweden / Luxembourg
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| Posted: Feb 22, 2015 14:47 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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Fully agree Jesse! I bought some perfect specimens for my collection at the Tucson 1989 Show. Similar ones would be difficult to find and buy today. I can assure you that there were many, MANY GREAT specimens, much more now in 2015 than in 1989!
Some of the greatest sold, some not. There were a great many very very fine specimens, some in fact for very reasonable prices! Some were even inexpensive for what they were! Yes, if I had gone wild this year as my first I could have increased my collection even towards the top end.
There was plenty, PLENTY of fine specimens, new, interesting and A LOT from OLD collections! There were Elmwood calcites at bottom prices, hundreds of them! Only in Elmwood 1987 I could buy such before! Now I am speaking not about the top ones, but standard very nice ones, some close to perfect, some with small nicks but still very fine. Everyone could afford a nice one!
For me it was enough to bring a hand luggage with my small exhibit. Applaud the dealers bringing huge quantities, unpacking, packing, labeling, huge expenses, weeks and months of preparations, traveling to get you something nice! SO easy just to go to a show and pouch the plums for whatever you decide to spend. One specimen? A few, all your decision. Buy the ones you find most interesting, beautiful, unusual, unique.
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strahler
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
Posts: 30
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Feb 22, 2015 15:18 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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Jordi, Jesse, and Peter,
I agree with what you all said.
I am not going to write too many words on the subject, time to move on............
Gone Fishing!
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Ryan Bowling |
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bgreenstone
Joined: 20 Mar 2015
Posts: 2
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Feb 21, 2016 13:27 Post subject: Re: TUCSON, 2016. And away we go.... |
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Holy Moley! Are those Blue Halites really going for $30k? I've got one that's even bigger and better from the same location, but I always figured it was worth between $1-$2k.
-Brian
Gail says: Whoa, first of all, I am far from finished on my show report so please don't start posting photos on my report, but do please start your very own recap or thoughts on the prices on your own thread.
That halite was hugely priced, and it was pristine and beautiful, but small. I choked when I saw the price too. In fact, a few of us were raising our eyebrows as we stood looking at it. But, you can ask what you like, no guarantee someone will pay that. If they do, then the value of ours should go up, right? But, you know...it's a halite.
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| Mineral: | Halite |
| Locality: | | PCA Mine (Intrepid Potash Mine; HB Potash Mine), Carlsbad Potash District, Eddy County, New Mexico, USA |  |
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| Dimensions: | 7 x 10.5 x 9.5cm |
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Philip Simmons
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 79
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
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| Posted: Feb 21, 2016 16:49 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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Hi Brian,
I think almost everybody that saw that particular halite was shocked, to one degree or another, at the price. It is good to keep the old adage in mind that the mineral is only worth what somebody is willing to pay. Who knows if it really sold, and if it did, for what price? Discounts to one degree or another are common among most dealers. I personally think the specimen was quite overpriced based on my experience.
Congratulations on the halite specimen, if the one you pictured is in your collection. It is a very nice piece. Comparing the two specimens, though, is a difficult task. I will say that the specimen in Gail's report is in the top 0.1% of halites that were found, based on aesthetics, color and perfection. Because of the trend in "minerals as fine art", perfection and aesthetics in specimens have translated into much higher value for the upper end mineral market. While I don't particularly agree with this trend, it is what it is. Based on the parameters mentioned above, I would place your specimen in the top 25% of halites collected. The difference between top 25% and top 0.1% is large, especially when considering how the high end mineral market works (I do think your assessment of the value of your specimen is very reasonable).
Again, you have a wonderful specimen! I hope you enjoy it in your collection as much as I enjoyed collecting it.
Concerning the "But, you know...it's a halite" remark, at least you can eat or barter the halite for something useful in case of an apocalypse. You can't say the same thing about a fine wulfenite, azurite, tourmaline, etc.! ;)
Regards,
Phil
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Gail
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 5839
Location: Texas, Lone Star State.
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| Posted: Feb 21, 2016 19:05 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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This true! I like a little halite on my fries!
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Minerals you say? Why yes, I'll take a dozen or so... |
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alfredo
Site Admin
Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 1011
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| Posted: Feb 21, 2016 20:14 Post subject: Re: Tucson, questionable prices? |
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Jesse wrote: "'I've always thought of the post-Tucson bout of complaining about prices as just a part of the ritual. It has been going on every year since I have been involved in the business, and I suspect it began the first time a specimen changed hands for money."
I suspect that last part is very true, Jesse... : "the first time a specimen changed hands for money" - ha ha ;))
A well-known collector once complained that dealers were killing mineralogy by jacking up prices too high. Who was that whiner? Collector Joe Blow at Tucson 2016? Nope. It was famous German writer Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (goethite), about 200 years ago, a mere 140 years before Tucson ever started. Nothing really changes, but each generation feels the need to whine all over again ;))
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