FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[alfredo]

Wasn't it Sarah Hanson who ended up winning the topaz and beer cans?

[Ed Huskinson]

Thank you Gail. Enjoy Houston, and we all look forward to your write-up on the show. Say Hi to Karl for me, and tell him that I'll have the Romero label off to him on Monday. Wish I could be there in Houston with everyone. I'm hoping that one of the old-timers, someone with a better memory than mine, can shed some light on the old auction specimen with the stunning lineage and humble appearance.

Drive carefully.

Ed

[rocknut]

People should spend their hard earned money anyway they like and auction fever is very exciting, but isn't the real point a lack of accurate information ? We love our minerals but would anyone buy a rock for $10,000 if they knew similar specimens they liked just as much were available for $1,000?
This is a free market and "buyer beware" is definitely operative but for those collectors who don't attend the shows or know the players , it's hard to get any kind of accurate pricing information . In this case the only information readily availble was an "estimate" that was misleading at best.
Transparency is always good and the more accurate information available the better.

[alfredo]

Rocknut, mineral specimens enjoy a "free market", but not what economists call an "efficient market", for precisely the reason you point out: Lack of information about how many specimens are actually available, and what they actually sell for. The "law of supply and demand" works well only when one has access to all the necessary information - which has improved a lot since the invention of the internet, but for minerals is still far far from ideal. Especially at the high end of the business there is a lot of "smoke and mirrors" - minerals shifted around between dealers, giving the impression that the market is more active than it really is.

And of course, dealers themselves suffer from the same lack of information at their sources. I can't count how many times I've overpaid for some allegedly very rare specimen in Bolivia, only to find out that there was a ton of the same material available the next week. I'll bet that Ed has had similar experiences in Mexico, and Jordi in Rumania.

The uncertainty is, perhaps, one of the factors that makes this hobby so much fun. ...like gambling in a casino; it's a game.

[Jordi Fabre]

In Rumania, Panasqueira, Morocco and (sigh) in Spain too... in fact in every place.

Miners are not idiots and if they can see that (for example) one Pyrite which normally it should worth at (grand maximum) US$100 is sold for US$10000, what do you suppose they will do?

Jordi

[keldjarn]

Gail,

I have been away a couple of days and just now read your post concerning my linking of the MR supplement to the location of the Heritage Auctions. It was just a harmless observation that vendors tend to turn up where there is a strong customer base. The excellent MR supplement which I enjoyed very much, documented that there are many collectors focusing on high quality minerals in Tx. There are numerous arts- and antiques auctionshouses around the world and for one of these to focus also on high quality mineral specimens when located in an area with a strong (potential) customer base is to me no more of a coincidence than the fact that there are many vendors of biotech supplies in California where you also have a strong customer base for such products. But maybe my use of English as a second language resulted in an odd phrasing of this observation. I have also observed that high-end mineral dealers have focused more of their activities to TX and that the Houston mineral show as also documented by your excellent reports may be emerging as one of the more important US mineral shows. As a result of dedicated curatorship and generous grants the mineral collection of the Houston museum of Natural History has also been emerging as one of the finest in the USA during the last decade. It should not come as a surpise that all the subscribers to the Mineral Record around the world will view the recent supplement from MAD and HAMS as a proof of the existence of a very strong collector community in Houston and Dallas focusing on aesthetic minerals. In business we talk about "cluster effects" and I would not say it is an odd observation that there seems to be similar cluster-effect in the area of high-end mineral specimens involving both museums, collectors, dealers, show organizers and auctions houses in this particular part of the world.
Knut

[Gail]

Thank you Knut, I daresay it was my misunderstanding of the way your put it, as you say.
I am going to start the Houston show report tomorrow, we just got in at 12:30 a.m. after driving four hours home from the Houston Show. I took LOTS of photos and much of it at the great party at the Houston Museum of Nature and Science on Friday night. Food, fun and wine...and best of all, the great minerals surrounding us.
Again, thank you for your explanation.
Gail

[keldjarn]

Gail,

I really look forward to your reports and pictures from the show. I hope to be able to visit the Houston show and also the Houston museum one day.
Knut

[Peter Megaw]

Some miscellaneous observations:

As Alfredo points out the internet has greatly increased our access to information about specimen finds. Unfortunately that information is also accessible to the sellers in Mexico, Morocco, China etc. All they focus on is the final price and tend to ask prices approaching that in the source region, regardless of the fact that there are signifcant travel and acquisition costs, time invested and profit to be realized for undertaking the effort included in the final price. Auction catalogs are widely disseminated on the internet and i would bet that most source region viewers do not fully appreciate that "estimated value" means "what we hope to get in our wildest dreams", nor do they do the work to find out ultimate price...so it could be argued that the long-term effects at the front end of the supply chain greatly outweighs those at the back end.

A rock is worth what someone will pay for it, and for those with experience in barter economies the price is always set high since you can always lower it, but raising it isn't possible. I have seen many dealers in Tucson, especially...but not all ,from overseas, who ultimately accept 30-40% of the asking price...this is pretty standard for barter systems, so getting 25% off from these guys is still throwing your money away.

The mother could also have said to her child "That's an interesting price, why don't you ask if it's keystone?...or if there's an additional discount for a child" I always give interested kids a whopping discount, especcially if they know the word "keystone" to get them involved. I believe "keystone" was one of Lauren's first words...or maybe it was "double keystone" (outright gifts don't work as well since people tend not to value anything free)

Speaking of keystone and buyers expectations... 25+ years ago when I was a grad student selling Mexican minerals out of the back of my car in the parking lot between the Desert Inn and Travelodge, a German dealer picked out a specimen from my stock and asked if the price was keystone. I explained that while most of my prices were keystone, the one he had was clearly marked "net" so that was the price. He fumed a bit and grumbled in a thick accent that "this is the parking lot, everything must be keystone". I wasn't terribly fond of this guy since he was one of the type that thinks that running down a specimen that they clearly want to buy is somehow going to convince me to sell it more cheaply. {I enjoy telling folks like that that since the specimen in question is so clearly deficient in their eyes that i would be doing them a disservice by selling it to them and suggest that they would undoubtedly be happier with another selection...generally one that actually shows the defects they are harping about}. However, I looked him in the eye and said "I told you the piece is $50 net, so the kestone price is $100, twice that, and I wil let you have it for $50". He smiled and agreed, paying me my original price...which I probably would have discounted 15-20% if he hadn't been so obtuse. From that day until I got "respectable" and moved inside at the EI, all my prices were keystone...don't fight City Hall!

And let us not forget that there are collectors out there who will not buy a rock if they think it is too cheap, regardless of how fine a specimen it is. I have seen folks turn down a great rock for $2000 at one dealer and buy an inferior piece from the same locality from another dealer for more than twice that.

Perception is everything, rocks are worth what someone will pay for them, and a good conversation often gets things down to a reasonable level. So, a dealer's logical response is to price high, hope someone takes it as is, and be ready to talk to a qualified potential buyer and determine what their comfort level is and make the sale. Most (definitely NOT all) dealers are smart enough to realize that repeat business is better long-term business than over-fleecing a sheep once. Some refuse to discern where profit ends!

[Joan Kureczka]

"...one of the type that thinks that running down a specimen that they clearly want to buy is somehow going to convince me to sell it more cheaply. "

Ah yes. Many years ago when Jesse and I actually had a dealers' room at one of the first Denver Holiday Inn shows, someone who is today a very well known high end dealer but was then just getting established took that tack with us very aggressively on a piece we were offering. I was so turned off, it was many years before I even felt like speaking to him again. Fortunately he doesn't operate in that manner these days, to my experience. And we sold the piece in question, to someone else who loved it and was very happy with the modest price we had on it.

Soon after that is when we decided we really didn't want to be show dealers, but rather just focus on collecting.

[Peter Megaw]

And I remember when a now famous high-end dealer would buy all my leftovers at the end of Tucson for 10-15% of the marked price. I loved it, zero inventory carry over from one year to the next. I still have a wonderful thumbnail gold I got in trade for part of this annual ritual...and so does he, he's been trying to buy it back ever since!

[John S. White]

I can't resist playing devil's advocate to Peter's comment about the potential buyer denigrating a specimen that he actually wanted. What I see in this scenario is a dealer who felt that he could resell for a decent price a specimen he bought from Peter only if he can manage to get a good discount on the purchase price. He does indeed want the specimen, but not for his personal collection, in which case the net price would probably be perfectly okay. He wants a specimen to resell, so who can blame him for trying to get for as little as possible?

[keldjarn]

I will just echo John`s comment by also pointing at the very different attitudes Peter displays in his entertaining post of "mischellanous observations". When purchasing from especially foreign dealers he expects a substantial discount and states that getting only 25 % off is still throwing your money away with these guys...
When in the position as the seller it is easier to ridicule the purchaser who as John points out may very well be an overseas dealer who will want to resell the specimen and therefore has to consider all possible advantages and disadvantages that may effect the final selling price to a collector back home. The dealer also has to consider the costs of travelling to Tucson etc just as Peter refered to when being in the same position. Suddenly Peter may be "one of these guys" expecting too much and not understanding the costs and risks involved in purchasing specimens and reselling them further up in the supply chain.
This is one of the fascinating results of the internet and the globalized economy how you have to adapt to having different roles and positions in the supply chain in business at different times. The better you can understand the factors affecting the interests and behaviour of people when in the position of sellers or buyers, the better you will succeed in any business.
Knut

[Peter Megaw]

Rising to the bait as usual...

I enjoy the negotiating game and happily play both ends...I've made great deals in Mexico and have seen specimens I was happy to sell for $10 in Tucson for sale in shops in Paris priced at over $150! (Notably of course the rock was still there 2 years later).
I also understand that pointing out defects...real or imagined...is part of the process of getting a rock for less.

However, I was referring to the buyers whose principal tactic is to nastily sneer at a rock, point out faults in great detail, and act like they're doing you a favor by even considering taking the rock off your hands. I understand it's a tactic, but it's irritating and unpleasant and suggests I'm not smart enough to see through what they're doing. The fact that they bother to engage in the behavior tells me up front that they want the rock, so it really boils down to a matter of the price...which I will be happy to discuss with variable flexibility depending on MY assessment of the rock, the price I put on it, and whether or not I am enjoying (or need!) the transaction.

There's enough unpleasantness in this world, so when someone is actively and unnecessarily adding to it, why would anyone want to reinforce that behavior by giving them what they want?

[Joan Kureczka]

Absolutely Peter, which was my point as well. I felt personally insulted by the treatment by that dealer, rather than in the middle of a negotiation for a lower price.