FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Jordi Fabre]

Great Podcast discussion, I enjoyed a lot, and great oppinions here too. When I can find time I will try to add some thoughts.

[Peter Lemkin]

Ah, yes....another interesting part of the discussion I forgot to react to here....about mining companies not caring about specimens. Long been true...long been true. I spend a lot of time up in the Telluride-Ouray mining area - and there are many stories and photos to prove them of miners who'd stop for moment to show fellow workers the most amazing and HUGE crystals or crystal clusters, and then throw them into the ore car or crusher. Luckily some were smart enough or had enough esthetic appreciation to put them in the 'lunchbox'. In other places mining foremen would sometimes ask miners to give them any interesting and unusual XX. We have lost most of the great XX ever mined and continue to do so. The big mining companies and those who make the decisions in them are 1] totally unaware of the beauty and even value of XX 2] don't want to make waves or slow down production, even for a few minutes or hours 3] are focused on the one or few mineral/metal products their mine produces and the hell with the other strange pockets with them in great xx or other minerals associated with them. I hope more can be convinced to find a way to meet the mineral-mad folks like us half way. It is in their interest too - even it they don't realize it. As a strange and rather macabre tale along these lines. I imagine most of you collectors know of the famous Czech location called Pribram [actually there are many mines, but collectively known by that name]. Some fantastic mineral specimens have come out of there. There is one guy who comes to shows and sells bits of what I once went to his home to see the full extent of. During the communist period here, political prisoners were sent into this [and other] mines to do hard labor. He was a guard and would give them small 'privileges' if they brought him interesting xx...and thus amassed tons of interesting materials mildly unethically. Oddly, he seems to believe he will live forever, as at the rate he is selling at shows, he'd have to live to be 1000 to sell half of what he has.

[Bob Carnein]

I listened to half of this and thought it was very interesting. I kind of wonder, though, where it goes from here. The talk was wide ranging, touching on a lot of issues that we have all thought about. Will future talks be a bit more organized, in terms of topics? If not, I probably will skip listening--there are only so many hours in the day.

With regard to astronomical prices, I worry that the same thing will happen to minerals at some point in the future that happened to antiques a decade ago. Except for the extremely rare items that most collectors can't afford, the bottom fell out of that market and hasn't yet recovered (although there are signs of life). It seems to me that some antiques dealers spent much of their time selling to wealthy buyers while ignoring or not cultivating the future collectors, who wanted to see things and learn. Could this happen to the mineral world?

I don't think mineral collectors should think of their collection as an "investment", because most of them probably will be disappointed at some time in the future, especially if they expect to sell the collection to a dealer. Although the best advice has always been to buy the best you can afford, that doesn't mean an unsophisticated but wealthy collector (there seem to be a lot of those out there) will recoup the costs when it comes time to sell. My advice to collectors would be to learn everything you can and then buy (or dig) what you find most interesting. My advice to dealers is that they focus more of their attention on the mid-range but sophisticated collectors who may become the connoisseurs of the future.

[James Catmur]

It is always interesting to see how fashion affects the price of things.

I have a house that is full of old brown furniture dating from the 17th to 19th century. We had it valued about 20 years ago for insurance purposes and it was worth a good sum. After my wife died in 2016 I had to have it valued for probate and was told that it is basically worth 1/10th of what it was insured for! Fashion is now for small, light colored furniture and large, brown furniture is worth almost nothing. Looking at prices at auction since then things we had valued at £1000 20 years ago now go for £100, so that looks about right!

So our collections are basically a reflection of the current fashion. If that changes then they will change in value. I have the space for my collection (when we married and bought this house one of the criteria was that it had to have a 'rock room' that could house my collection. A number of times we did not move as there was no 'rock room'). Many people will not have the space required and I am sure we will see fashion change. So the future will not just depend on new people but also on fashion.

My grandfather built the world's largest collection of printer ephemera (The John Johnson Collection, in Oxford). It was gifted to a museum, as that was his wish. At the moment it is valued by the museum (although it has been moved to the basement and the room it was in is now a far more fashionable cafe) but who knows what the future will bring.

[Peter Lemkin]

PI for one have never seen or felt my mineral collection as an 'investment' or even as a financial asset. I has worth and that worth has obviously increased greatly over the years with the asymptotic rise in mineral prices. But, I collected them and purchased/traded them because i love and cherish them. I could never sell them when alive. They have intrinsic value as beautiful manifestations of Nature, atomic structure, crystalline structure, geology and geological processes, time, etc. All of these elements were created in the inner cores of older stars and spread through space by the explosion [supanovae] of stars in their death throws; then drifted as www.spam.og dust and eventually were consolidated into proto-stellar systems and then into planets - and specifically this one Gaia [Earth]. That to me is their only real value - along with their beauty, mystery, and what they can tell about atomic, chemical and geological processes. Of course, they also have monetary value - I am not naive, but what always has bothered me is when persons see them first [or only] for their financial value or worst their 'investment' value - and minimize or ignore their intrinsic value as Natural objects of beauty and awe. If the 'bottom drops out' of the mineral market, as a collector, it will be wonderful - of course it would be devastating to those who make a living selling them. Hopefully, the astronomical prices of many items will come down and remain stable - I think that would benefit all in the long run and ensure a lasting legacy of sellers and buyers. I somehow can't imagine that interest in mineral specimens and collecting could ever really drop drastically, due to their intrinsic value and beauty. Rise or Fall in external value, the value to me of my collection remains the same......

[Peter]

Breakfast with minerals

I am heavily influenced by having started as a toddler, picking up white quartz, tan and red feldspars and a few tiny muscovite flakes from gravel on my grandparents walkway) originating at the Vallhamn granite quarry at Tjörn Island, Bohuslän, Sweden). I kept my treasures, my collection in a tiny matchbox, all of it! The following spring when I could walk, I collected my first "floating rock" a pumice, followed by many other from the revet Surtsey eruption in November 1963. Tiny quartz crystals, like in our world atlas, were extremely exciting to find in the cliffs by the beach.

Where I am going is the importance of nurturing small and bigger children, and up to adults to observe, and study, maybe even collect some minerals in nature. The thrill of own discovery can not be beaten.

I think it is needed with many many more programs in TV, radio, of all kinds to expose the general public to geology, minerals ,and all the sciences around them.

Museums, mineral shows, rock shops, societies, journals, games, specimens in public places, even varied gravel in cities where many people pass, ..... can you imagine my joy to find clear fluorite of many colors scattered in gravel, or tiny pyrite cubes in the same, or graphite crystals in calcite in the gravel in flower pots outside a Chinese restaurant... all as a child....or at age 8 finding my own crystal cave. I never removed any crystals from inside the cave. But it made ever lasting memories.

I wish everyone on the planet had the same exposure to minerals as we do to coral reefs, plants, jungles, volcanoes, birds, animals, fish, ... and much more of minerals than football), soccer that is), car races, motorbikes, beer etc).

Therefore there should ideally be dedicated road rest stops in conjunction with interesting road cuts, old quarries and mines should NOT be allowed to be filled in, covered up, sealed, but be protected just as forests, historical buildings.... Kids should have a chance to collect some simple or advanced minerals in local old quarries.

Local collectors say exhibit some local minerals in libraries, schools, flower shops, food store,,,,, I found great joy in getting a tumbled gem as a kid from a Shell gas station when we filled up with gas there.

Every exposure is so precious.

Ideally all kids who do fall in love with beautiful minerals, crystals, banded rocks... we really need to take care of, hand them some crystals to hold in the hand and feel, give them something to bring home. The excitement for a curious child to clean off the mud of an Moroccan aragonite crystal group , or opening a geode is great.

I have made permanent (built in or in display cases) exhibits of minerals in public places such as hospital, hockey arena, educational institutions etc.... without a penny profit and no payment for the work.

Give a child an MR, a coloring book, all those things discussed. We certainly are not attracting our children as they do in China, on such massive scale.

Minerals are the base for modern society. Not much of what we use and do modern society is grown in the ground or shaved off a sheep except for food and clothing.

Every angle, every location can contribute to enhance the exposure.

World famous mineralogy Professor Igor Pekov found a piece of Jasper on a Moscow street at age 8 that triggered his interest. We could and should have some mine run material in public places in big and s,aller cities.....

If you are arranging a mineral show near a mine, get some fresh truckloads of minerals from the mine with crystals and put a dump near the show. It will be open free access when the show opens and if interesting it will be gone before the show is over.

I could go on forever but thank you for your patience, Everyone, doing the slightest thing is appreciated.

The for those who are hoarders, raking the deer food from any bit of agate that will end up filling your basement, maybe leave 99% and bring a ounce or two home instead.

Where I was born there was a lake in Sweden with an entire beach of beautiful deep purple amethyst and some white and purple banded... a few years later locals had collected tens of tons just to tumble. Obviously the interest and impact would have been much better to let kids go and see this beach and bring a piece or two home.

Cheers
Peter

[Peter Lemkin]

Some of us were mesmerized by minerals/crystals very early in life. In fact, I can't imagine it being otherwise. As I mentioned I talked my parents into taking me on my first field collecting trip to Franklin, New Jersey [we lived in the suburbs of NYC] when I was eight. By then I already had a mineral collection several years old - some self collected, a few pieces given to me by a parent's friend who was a science teacher. The self collected were from the beach sands of our summer house, from trips to the Appalachian Mts in 'upstate' New York summer vacations - I even found a 25Kg milky quartz XX just lying by a hiking path [others had not seen it for what it was, apparently] and my father and I carried it back to the car. Sadly, it was very weathered having been on the surface a very long time, but clearly showed the six sides and the faces on one end.

Other people just don't 'see' minerals or crystals. Some few when they see my mineral collection have a blank face and will sometimes say 'but these are just rocks'. But they are the exception - most react very positively and in amazement at the forms, colors and I have an area of my collection of 'minerals that do something' - that usually amazes those who are naive about minerals.

I was always fascinated by the Natural World and all parts of it. The nice thing about minerals is they don't need watering, feeding or too much special care as do biological materials - but they too I have at times collected to a much more limited extent.

Most children collect interesting stones and keep them in their pockets or in their room, some of us just never stopped and got interested in more sophisticated specimens......and in collecting them. I'm glad, however, that not everyone shares our level of passion in minerals - for if they did just imagine what prices at shows would be and how hard we'd have to fight both at shows and at field collection places for them. I go to some fantastic field collection places and am nearly always amazed that I'm the only person there - although there are usually signs that others have been in the area before....other mineral-mad people that share our passion and minority hobby. I'm sure many more are interested in cars, football, movie stars lives, romance novels, crossword puzzles, and other such than are seriously interested in minerals - and maybe that is best that way [for us].

[Peter]

The blank face I have not seen too much of, but as a student it happened that when inviting friends home for dinner etc, one in a couple observed in amazement while the other with sadly narrowed intellect immediately asked, is it worth anything! What can you do with it.

I remember well going out in the middle of nowhere one evening to the Jacumba pegmatite district towards the Mexican border in southern California with a few friends stumbling upon another nature and mineral lover.

[Peter Lemkin]

[Jordi Fabre]

Very interesting comments.

In many of them I believe I can find a common characteristic. Apparently we all remember well how we were passionate about minerals: suddenly something exploded in our heads when we found a mineral (or even a rock) when we were very young and that was what we were passionate about. I am afraid that all of us are currently "seniors" and we forget a little that nowadays the world is VERY different of the world in which we were born.
The kids today are mostly interested in digital contents. They already are a digital generation and very few analogical things interest they anymore. Our world was 100% analogic and his world is mostly digital so if we want to transmit our passion for this hobby we should think about how to do it in a digital way.

I am an action person, so without much more reflection it occurs to me that there is something we could do now.
We all spend countless hours consulting (digitally) our favorite mineral pages, among which I think there are two with a very large number of visits: Mindat and this Forum. Why not create something that interests our children / grandchildren that can be strongly related with Mindat and FMF and that allows us to avoid to be isolate ourselves in "our" favorite pages (and, in some way, put aside our sons/grandsons) and on this way try to share this new page with they and thus maybe interest they in our hobby? When we will be surfing through Mindat or FMF and our children / grandchildren were at home, we could click on a link and a new page full of visual stimuli and colors would appear and then we could call they to see it and even play there (with us or without us)

I imagine something like a "Play Minergeology" page that can be accessed from Mindat and FMF with just a click (just like the easy access to FMF Spanish from here). That page would have to have video games related to minergeology, videos, informal chats among young people, very spectacular images that would not necessarily have to be minerals (they could be volcanic eruptions, solar explosions, images of Mars...), possibilities of encounters and/or dates between people from the same areas
It would have to be something as well as a kind of social net of Geology but designed for very young people.

It turns out that I can think of who could prepare this new page and do it very well. Bryan Swoboda has children, great technical skills and a digital vision of the processing of images and their synchronization with the "social net" mode.
It would be necessary to see if he or/and someone else very prepared could / would prepare that page, and then we would have to finance it collecting fresh money with crowdfunding, donations, or something similar, and when that new page was done, simply prepare in Mindat and here a very visible link in every page that with a single click allowed to surf between the "official" page and that new page "Play Minergeology".

What do you think?

[rweaver]

My thought on Jordi's post. I spent the time years ago to put my collection up on a personal website and still maintain it today. I add new minerals to the collection when I get them. I know over the years when ever the schools in the US are doing State reports I get lot of questions about minerals and where they come from. My collection is nothing fancy but it is what I like to collect, so maybe if more of the older collectors would do the same it would help keep the hobby moving forward.

[Peter Lemkin]

While personal website with one's minerals is a fine idea, I don't see much difference between that and, for example, this website...where there are threads that are various person's collections. Maybe someone needs to invent a 'mineral app'. ;-/. Has it really gotten so bad that many young people now don't even acknowledge the real world - only the cybersphere? Is hiking in the mountains down too? Boating? Swimming? I think the de-emphasis on basic science education hasn't helped [understatement]. Even the trend in colleges and universities to NOT take courses outside of your 'major' [once the standard - now the exception] means few not specifically in the sciences/geosiences will get any exposure to chemistry, crystallography, or geology. Sad. I think there are 'hooks' to get people interested, but it is different for different people. For some it might be meteorites and then the minerals in meteorites and that they exist here on Earth too...and with some re-arrangement of some atoms you can get other crystals and minerals...and hey look at all these exciting minerals that make up your smartphone's components, etc. As a child [and yes, most of us here seem to be well past our childhoods], I used to love to go to natural history museums and the first area I always went to was the minerals...and then the dinosaurs. Don't young people go to museums anymore? Then we have to bring the museums to them via the internet!

[Peter]

Great idea Jordi.
I love the young collectors filming Bryan has done previously but we need that same of very young collectors to 2-7 year olds can also collect. Now that is filming of the real deal.
And of course all kinds of games, digital, puzzles, with mineral, geology, gem connection.

Min Craft could need some additional real crystals to dig out.
Peter

[Turbo]

The first episode was really good. As a young collector, I can recall all the things that got me into minerals. A lot of those things that seeded my interest are no longer present, or disappearing such as science shops, toy stores that have stones, rock shops, and high school mineral collections. I remember my school had a couple of mineral cases for the longest time and then by the time I graduated, they were gone. At the same time there are so many new ways young folks can become exposed to minerals. I was hit by two waves, all the classic forms of exposure to science as a child, and then by college, it was the online mineral dealers, my University's museum, and forums like this. I cannot stress more how instrumental the internet has been in helping me learn about minerals quickly. Between FMF, mindat, the huge library of photos shared on tumblr, flikr, pinterest, Instagram, and reddit, there are so many ways young folks can get exposed to collecting today. Lately my favorite resource has been Facebook groups. I have started several of my own, the most successful being "Calcite Collectors" where I have been able to network with many people who share my interest both dealers and collectors. It's really cool to see folks documenting their finds in the field, sharing things they picked up at shows, or photos they have taken at shows. I can confirm from my interactions in this realm that there are plenty of young field collectors and dealers eager to trade and sell. Just in the past couple of months, I've bought and traded with at least four young field collectors keeping old localities alive and one establishing a new one. I think the community is alive and well, it has just changed in the way people come together and distribute information.

[Dave Waisman]

Turbo:
I enjoyed reading your comments and was very glad to see you describe all the ways in which you were exposed to mineral collecting. Those avenues of entry into our hobby are terrific! In many ways they have replaced the rock shops, the digging sites no longer accessible and the disappearing school displays.
The groups you formed on Facebook sounded great! One of the most rewarding aspects of this hobby to me is getting to know and becoming friends with many of the collectors. Do you have real-time get-togethers at shows with the members of your internet groups? You're probably way ahead of me on this, but perhaps it would be a great way to bring people face to face at a show.