FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[John S. White]

One thing that troubles me greatly about the mineral hobby today is that very few collectors appear to have much, if any, intellectual curiosity about minerals. The focus for most collectors appears to be only beauty and perfection, rather than rarity or novelty. What makes Jordi's website more or less unique, in my opinion, is that he makes an effort to point out interesting and unusual features on each of the specimens that he offers, features such as unusual crystal forms, exceptional crystal sizes uncommon associations, rare occurrences, etc. I am not aware of any other internet mineral merchant who does this. The best thing about it is that it reminds potential buyers that there is more to appreciate about minerals than just beauty and perfection.

John

[Jan Erik]

Yes, I think John have pointed out something to think about.. I have seen most of the dealers web-side, and there is very few, if none, who describe the minerals for sale like Jordi. Very informativ in the different way minerals can be found, crystal form, where from and even the year it has been found. Combining both seldomness, crystal habit, unusual locality and beauty, can be done. For new collectors it could also be very educated. It is very seldom not to see beautyful specimens on Jordis web-side. So rare and unusuall mineral specimens is also beautyful on J ordis web-side.

Most of collectors do prefer to buy a pretty specimen. (I also do that myself) If a specimen is ugly but seldom and it suites in my collection I would buy it. I think if you just are collecting minerals for just their pretty look and perfection, for me it would be boring. If you collect minerals from a specially country, a mineral class or just one or two or three minerals, it would be much more interesting, much more fun and it is my opinion, your mineral knowhow will increase.

So if I see a lets say, Cerussite from a locality that I do collect from and Jordi puts out in the texture that the xl form is rare for that locality, I will strongly suggest to buy it. (could be too expensive)

Every collector do have their own agenda for collecting of cause. After years collecting and buying minerals the level and knowledge about minerals do increase. And coming to perfection and beauty I think all levels will have its right. A Pyromorphite in all kinds of xl habit, colour, size and value will apear.

[Tracy]

I think I commented in earlier postings that I collect things because I like to learn about them. This applies both to a specimen's history as much as to its originality. If I read, for example, that a piece's crystal structure is uncommon, it inspires me to learn more about crystal formation and also makes the speimen more attractive to me. Granted, sometimes it's just nice to pick up a "classic" specimen, but overall I prefer the oddballs and rarities that John writes about. Classics might make for better long-term investments (I hope that's a valid statement...?), but by and large it's the unique history and/or attributes that make a piece special in my mind.

Agree wholeheartedly that Jordi does a great job describing each specimen's characteristics, both typical and atyipcal. I learn something new every time I come browsing! :)

On a related topic, is there anyone in the NJ or general northeast US area who would be willing/interested in helping me make sense of a specimen I can neither identify nor explain from a mineralogical standpoint? Jordi has seen photos from afar and his preliminary opinion is that it's quartz on "something" - my biggest challenge with this piece is that I can't determine up from down (it's basically a pile of shards or plates, with a few embedded crystals, all coated with quartz and with no obvious orientation; origin unknown). Please let me know if you'd like to gelp me solve this mystery. Thanks...

[John S. White]

Dear TAK:

If you email me at

john at jwkustos dot com

I can suggest someone in NJ who may be able to help with your mystery mineral.

John White

[Carles Curto]

As much I know, actually, the most conspicuous collectors (I repeat, the most conspicuous) are really collecting beauty more than mineralogy, possibly because they take the most valuate specimen on sale, which is specially visible for whole amateurs and professionals . But, even being true that mineralogy, as a hobby, attracts people just interested on the piece, there also are people devote on different aspects of the mineralogy. People collecting a concrete class, group or mineral, regional mineralogy, systematic, etc. On my experience, this kind of collector, generally discrete and, so, less relevant to our eyes and knowledge, aims to know more about their minerals and reach and search continuously. Concretely, in Spain, a lot of collectors are current consultants of the Museum of Barcelona (and, I must presume, of the other museums on the country). Our (public) library and myself, as responsible on mineralogy, are continuously answering questions and proportioning information. Then, John, may be not all is lost.

[John S. White]

It is encouraging to encounter the optimism of Carles. While I never implied that all is lost, I do not see enough evidence of the growth of intellectual curiosity with regard to minerals, and not all museum officials are as gracious with their time as Carles is in inviting collectors to interact with him, unfortunately. Many of today's curators are quite isolated and access to them by collectors is very limited.

Perhaps the type of exchanges occurring in this forum and the message boards of some other websites will stimulate greater interest in the the scientific side of the hobby, one can only hope this will be the case. What is troubling, however, is that even with all of the increased sales of minerals over the internet, I do not see this reflected in an increase in circulation of the leading mineral journals. In fact, my sense is that the circulations of many, if not most, of these journals is shrinking, something that makes no sense if internet sales are greatly increasing the number of people who buy mineral specimens.

In any case I am not predicting the demise of the hobby. The phenomena of mineral sales over the internet is still much too new to assess the ultimate effect they may have over the future of the hobby. One thing seems clear and that is that a lot of people are making a lot of money selling minerals this way, so somewhere down the road the hobby should see some growth and that is to be wished for.

John

[Tracy]

I echo Carles' sentiments and share in his optimism. As stated in previous postings, I collect minerals because they teach me things, and I imagine that many others do the same. For certain we are all interested in different aspects of minerals, but I believe that nonetheless there are rewards gained through the acquisition of new knowledge which transcend simple esthetics, even if esthetics might be the original driving force for starting a minerals collection. You might also want to consider that collecting minerals has grown into an extremely popular hobby lately, and that the "knowledge" aspects simply need time to catch up to the enthusiasm.

I also believe that Jordi's Forum, and others like it, are perfect places through which to "expand our horizons" about the hobby we share and love. Through this Forum, so far we have discussed mineral ID techniques, mines, localities, labels, and general thoughts/opinions. Speaking only for myself, I have enjoyed reading the postings and following their information threads. Also, you were kind enough to help me with identification of a mystery specimen (a best-attempt photo attached, with discussion to follow in a later posting) which I always thought of as a weird piece of "ho-hum" quartz or amethyst and which, to my surprise and delight, turns out to be fluorapophyllite of an unusual crystal habit covering (most probably) quartz breccia. My appreciation of the forces of nature which conspired to create this piece, and the continued quest to find out where this specimen might have come from, are increased as a result. None of this would have come about were it not for my having asked for (and having received) your help through a posting to the Forum.

On the subject of reading: another thing to consider is that for many people, life has become increasingly more pressurized and, by extension, opportunities for increasing knowledge through reading are growing more scarce. Also by extension, the Internet is becoming increasingly popular relative to journal reading because it is a quick "go-to" knowledge source when one only has a few minutes to spare. Given that I have a long commute each day and the luxury of some reading time, I have subscribed to two mineral journals in the past year and am enjoying reading and learning from them. Reading the journals is a perfect complement to what I am learning by following this Forum. But again it is because I have some spare time that might not be available to others. I would be more inclined to suggest that overall the quest for knowledge (as reflected in a rise in journal subscriptions) might seem to be temporarily dormant because we are too busy, but it is far from lost and will eventually match pace with the interest in collecting itself, through whatever available vehicle(s) .

Written in haste, I am sharing a computer this week. More on the mystery specimen (including, hopefully, some close-up photos) to follow...

[Carles Curto]

Am I optimist? I WILL be optimist! I’m quite agreeing John but I also declared, in the last communicate, a hopeful reality.
I think the great enemy of a satisfactory development of the hobby is no Internet (or, at least, not only Internet). I don’t know which is the mineralogical contain that scholar programs establish on different countries. In Spanish school Earth science is progressively evanescing. Then, since just now, children don’t will have a direct contact with minerals, rocks, fossils and geologic hazards and processes. School was, until few time ago, one of the most relevant pole of attraction for new amateurs on mineralogy. At the same time, the “scholar” mineral, cheap but representative of every species, attainable to beginner and to people not having a high acquisitive level, is actually almost disappeared. I’m sure they are two powerful reasons (more than Internet) because the feeling of “search of the treasure”, usually inherent to the first steps on the hobby and the first motor for curiosity and knowledge, is progressively lost.
In defense of Internet I argue that not only exist strictly commercial pages. Some (very few, it is true) commercial pages (this forum is an example) adds very interesting mineralogical information and exists a lot of webs to consult, plentiful of data, images, crystallography, localities, etc.
By other, the problem of the progressive poorness on mineralogical knowledge is not only in the world of collection. Universities and High Schools all over the world are quickly loosing chairs and contents and are favoring more technical and specialized matters and loosing the generalist point of view so necessary to Natural History. In that sense, museums and advanced collectors seems to be the last hope. Don’t loose it!

[Jordi Fabre]

Just a short note to say thanks to TAK to share with us in a so optimistic way her opinion about the situation of the mineral collection's hobby today. We can trace the reasons why she started and the reasons why she still keep her interest to collect minerals. I feel that in fact her reasons are the same reasons that mature collectors collecting minerals for long long time had in the begin: the marvel of this nature's miracles.

Science, knowledge, business, social life, mineral shows, mineral magazines....all this items arrive after to every collector and for sure they are helpful and absolutely necessary to grow the collections on a better, rational and more complete way, but although the enormous importance of this mineralogical plus to the mineral hobby, for me it is also very important never forget the main reason why I started to like minerals: just by its pure beauty.

Jordi

[Farlang]

Hi,

let me introduce myself real quick: I lived in San Francisco for 5 years where I joined the "Crystal Gazers" (Jack Halpern, Jesse Fisher, Paul Geffner and Bob Beyers are friends of mine), and worked as a diplomat negotiating with Silicom Valley companies on behalf of the Dutch (which is my nationality) Government. Right now we are building a large internetplatform focused on Jewelry and Gemstones, and (temporarily) living in Spain (long story why that is the case).

John we met in Tucson and you mentioned Fabre's forum.. so.. here we go.

I have a very very clear opinion on this topic and do not share at all the optimism of other mineral collecting colleagues on here and would even go a few steps further than John did.

What we see here is not limited to mineral collecting alone but is a symton of a much more profound trend. Call it materialism, call it "everyone has become superficial", call it darwinism or call it globalisation, the end result is the same; an intensified focus on presentation, on status, on materialism. A global competition with aspiring middle classes in upcoming countries, which puts pressure on existing systems in the USA and Europe (not so much yet but it will come, believe me).

A consequential split of the market in a mass market at the bottom (with occasional aspiring luxury items) and a small elite group at the top. This separation has been happening for a decade now and applies to people (classes) and more or less any type of product. it's not a coincidence ultra-luxury is skyrocketing, and minerals in the $ 75.000+ price bracket do the same. The middle area looses: for ppl with money, it looks "too cheap", for ppl without money it's still to expensive.

The resulting pressures on a society and population are also identical: from the slow break down of the "welfare state" in Europe to intensified competition in the USA, and a slowly (and sometimes not so slowly) diminishing middle class.

People will go for what is easy to show, what appeals quickly and what is quick to absorb. There is no more time. Technology has created a more ADD like generation (and unfortunately myself included: I usually watch tv, be on the phone, email and read on the web all at the same time). And the increased competition for more, or even just the basic needs of survival, narrows people's vision tremendously.

In fact I just read an article how antique books have become popular. Is it because we suddenly love books again and love to feel the old paper, read ancient knowledge ? No.. because it looks so cool to have 3 feet (1 m) of old leather bound books on your bookshelf. It doesn't matter if the language is Hungarian, Latin or Englsh.. they're not going to be read anyway. The "cool Intellectual Look" is what is important... THIS YEAR... and yes.. they DO sell them per 3 feet, leather bound.

Another example: less ppl are interested in the (exact) sciences. Old news. What DO ppl like ? Cool pictures about planets from NASA. Polar bears drowning because of Global warming.

What at some point was hoped to be an opportunity maker and equalizer: "Education" is quickly turning into an elite creator (again !!) given the costs and given the requirements: where a B.S. was great for a nice middle class job. 20-30 years ago. it has to be an M.S. now, preferably with an MBA etc etc. Where many schools would provide you with a good background, we now (again) have a group of elite schools. I know it differs per country etc.. but I only have a little bit of space here.

In this environment I do not see any hope for journals like Min. Rec R&M or others to increase their sales. Obviously there's a hard core crowd. Fine. But to appeal to a larger group ? No. Do people really want to know what the mineralogical description of pegmatites is ? No. Give the damm Aquamarine and let me pay 50.000.. I like it, it's pretty. But... if I pay you 50 grant, you'd better guarantee to me it's the best in the world. I only want the best piece in the world.

Yes sir, I swear.... it's the best in the world (to my knowledge.....). Here is the Min Rec article about Aquamarine of Pakistan and here's the Lapis.. do you see ANY PICTURE better than this specimen ?? And these are *the best* !!!

Noone has time, interest nor the energy to really investigate... and THAT is why certain mineral dealers can make a lot of money. If they're smart, they 'd better back themselves up with the right knowledge... but some are not even so smart...

Does this mean there is no hope for education ? For in depth knowledge and for study ? Ofcourse there is, because that is where *you* can create an advantage over others if you do not have the sheer amount of money.

But generally it will have to be presented in a much different way than the top-down "let me teach you about..." method for knowledge (and especially dry, complicated knowledge) to appeal to the main crowd. You have to wrap it into 10 second sound bites (or images) and always, always keep self-interest (it's all about "me" after all) in mind, with attention grabbers.

Else.. we'll always be taling about a niche. And that is great.. in this way experts fulfill a role, and personally I love it.. I get braindead otherwise. But we were not talking about *us* but about a general appeal to a larger community.

Oh.. and no.. I did not forget to mention that less ppl are interested in the sciences, the rockhounding sites have diminished, kids play PS II and don't go outside and dig, more ppl are city dwellers etc etc.. I am aware of all those arguments, and surely, they relate specifically to mineral collecting.. but it wasn't the point I wanted to make.

Cheers

Patrick Slavenburg

[Farlang]

I am also not expecting a demise in the hobby. It's changed.. and I don't think it will change back... and.. if it doesn't appeal in the same way a "reality show" show appeals to a lot of people (ok if that is too uneducated for you.. how about "the Apprentice" (with "You're Fired" Donald Trump). All my techie and business friends watched it faithfully...) ; I don't think it's going to really see this popularity it once had..

[ike wilson]

i HAVE BEEN COLLECTING FOR MORE THAN 60 YEARS, AND i STILL FING IT TRULY INTERESTING , IT IS A NICE WAY TO MEET NEW FRIENDS, THE MINERALS MAKE A GOOD TALKING POINT, i ATTEND OUR CLUB SHOW IN dERBYSHIRE ONCE A YEAR AND WE HAVE A SMALL BOX OF FREE SPECIMENS FOR CHILDREN TO TAKE, YEARS AGO THE SAME CHILDREN WHO TOOK ONE ARE NOW SERIOUS COLLECTORS AND ATTEND SHOWS ALL OVER EUROPE. AND BUY FROM THE INTERNET.
SOI THINK THE MINERAL INTEREST HASNT DECLINED ITS JUST MOVED THE GOAL POSTS A BIT...DIVERTED TO OTHER METHODS OF OBTAINING WHATS NEEDED,
iF YOU ARE A COLLECTOR OF SPECIFICS YOU LEARN MORE ABOUT YOUR SUNJECT AND IN DUE COURSE PASS THE INFO ON TO OTHERS, SO WHAT HAVE WE GOT HERE. WELL I THINK WE HAVE A SERIES OF "THINGS" TO COLLECT IN THE FIELD YOU HAVE TO READ MAPS, ORIENTATE THE AREA, PHYSICALY DIG, PLUS YOU MAY HAVE HAD TO WALK A FEW KILOMETRES TO THE SITE. THEN YOU HAVE TO BRING THEM HOME WASH OR CLEAN THEM AND THEN IDENTIFY AND LABEL THEM, THEN TALK TO YOUR FRIENDS ABOUT THEM TOO, ITS AN OLD METHOD OF KEEPING FIT, LEARNING CURVE GOES UP, FRIENDS INCREASE, SELF SATISFACTION HITS THE TOP OF THE SCALE.
SO HEY LETS NOT KNOCK IT TOO MUCH...A GOOD WILL FINDS A WAY !!!!

[John S. White]

There is no doubt that the hobby is changing and that the dominant activity seems to be within the group that can afford to buy more or less expensive specimens. Still, there are thousands of dedicated and informed collectors who personally field collect, who study what they have, and get very excited over specimens that the trophy collectors would never look at twice. The problem appears to be that this serious group is not of sufficient size to adequately support the smaller shows. The large shows appear to be thriving but the smaller ones are not. I do not believe that the blame for this can be directed at those who are involved in internet sales. There are just not enough serious mineral collectors to support all of these shows. Perhaps after some more years of internet sales the number of collectors who have an intellectual interest in minerals will grow to the point where small shows will become successful. Let us hope so, it is too soon now to make that judgement. Internet sales are still in their infancy.

John White

[Farlang]

John,

look at the benefits of each internet and local shows

# dealers, choice, quality of the minerals, price (highly dependent on cost structure of the show: booth, hotel, travel expenses, food etc)

I do not see the local shows coming back or blooming at all. The reason is that internet is a game changer in the sense that it helps you focus your distribution channels. If you're a professional dealer you want your customer-reach maximized, your cost minimized and maximum flexibility.. internet gives you that AND internet is "old enough" to have created trust of the consumer.

The amateur-rockhound/prospector/miner etc.. who sells directly to a dealer.. who sells to a collector on a show and will never get online... well.. he'll do just that: use his network of dealers more and more (forced this way by a lack of shows) and to collectors he knows.

One way to fill this "need-gap" and the need to "meet in person" (we're humans after all) are by meetings of rockhound clubs/collectors groups.. this then becomes a second channel for those type of prospectors to meet collectors directly.

No need for local shows anymore, you basically have split an all "general" event (local show" ) into more "specilised events" (internet, large shows, local rockhound meetings).

THAT is why internet is a game changer.

PS: in case there's not enough critical mass for a rockhound club to exist. (because the hobby in general is under pressure) . obviously there won't be enough to support a local show. This is the main problem internet tackled originally: providing critical mass for niches.

I think what many fail to realize is that internet is not just another distribution channel.. what it has done, and will remain to do, especially in context with other technologies is to re-write the business models that drive a certain sector. This means that sometimes traditional "venues"/models/ways of doing things.. will go and be split into bits and pieces.. and new events/models/ways of doing things (which are not so new if you just look back far enough in time) are created and take over part of the "fall-out" that internet has created.

It all depends on exactly analyzing what the *NEEDS* of customers (if you talk about business) are.. and how to fulfill them best.

So in short: yes internet HAS changed things permanently, and no I do not believe local shows (for now) will see a revival.. BUT as you pointed out: these minerals go *somewhere*. and all these people would like to do *something* with it (or not ? ) at some point which means more likely then not; new structures will be found to express themselves.. with or without internet.. but.. it won't be the same it was before.. it'll be different.. sometimes similar but different.

THAT is the way internet and technology affects us.. we're in the middle of a revolution we have not seen before in a long time, and it is dramatically changing society. Some sectors/areas are very resilient to these changes (like where we are working in: jewelry stores/gem dealers) but hey you know what ? One after another goes bankrupt, stubbornly denying the world has changed and is still changing. In the case of a jewelry store it is pretty clear why: diamonds were their main revenue-maker and diamonds have been standardized on the web, database driven, certificate driven, middle men cut out.. and therefore difficult to compete against. What else do they offer, many offer little discriminating/low value imported jewelry.. the same stuff I can get on TV, online.. but .. cheaper. Ohh.. does he offer knowledge ? More than *I* Know ? I don't think so.. so why exist ? And hence they go bankrupt in massive ways.

The ones that stay: high volume chain stores, with purchasing power.. or specialized niche boutiques with enormous mark-ups (but hey it works !) Like everywhere else, a split in the market, new channels, new focus. Technology drove much of that change. You can go on and on and analyze each market.. you'll find similar stories.

I guess change has always been a difficult thing to accept, especially if it so fast paced as it is now.. (because it is not JUST technology, but technology helps *drive* the development of upcoming countries, which in turn create more changes hence accelerating the process, something we have seen in particular in the last 3-5 years).

[Jordi Fabre]

Patrick,

Well, I agree most of the topics of your text but also is it my experience that Internet created the hobby to collect minerals to many people who never before had any idea about the existence of something like "collect mineral specimens" and this people is going to shows actually or they will go.
This is not a theory, it is my personal experience: most of the people which I personally know starting buying minerals by Internet, sooner or later visited or will visit shows. I ignore if they will return to shows or if they will share shows and Internet on his future purchases, but on the meantime people who never was in a mineral show before, actually visit they because they knew them by Internet.

An other topic is if the local shows will stay or will decline, but as far as I know, the decline of the local shows started before the arrival of Internet's mineral selling and I can't say if Internet is the cause of this decline or simply the mineral's market is not so powerful to support too much shows, so maybe some local shows decline just by a kind of "natural selection".

Jordi

[John S. White]

I would just like to add that on May 26 I attended a local one-day show. It was very well intended which suprised me because this was a holiday weekend, Monday being our Memorial Day. There were a record number of dealers selling minerals and the quality was far better than in previous years. There were many dealers selling minerals that they had collected themselves and there were many who were selling inexpensive minerals that were more interesting for their rarity than for their beauty or exhibit potential. There were lots of visitors with hand lenses, always a reassuring sign.

I found this local show to be very encouraging.

Perhaps local shows fail when they attract top dealers who end up selling very little of their expensive things so they complain about how bad the show is. I don't know the answer, but I still hold out hope that there is a place for local shows. I have also attended a couple of them in the London (UK) area, and they were very well atteneded.

[Farlang]

Hmmm.. I am surprised.. well... you may have a good point there that internet created a market (partially) where it wasn't there before.. and that drives the audience to the local shows.. seems to be confirmed by John's observations as well..

so perhaps the topic needs a deeper analysis (since you can argue both ways)...

yes I agree local shows were in decline before internet.. and that (in my opinion) definitely had to do with a smaller audience.. urban population versus rockhounding (the traditional way for many to start collecting)..

So.. question then.. are internet sales the 21st century equivalent of rockhounding ? A mouseclick instead of hour-long hammering in one's own sweat ? Did we basically outsource the physical part ? Virtual world versus Real world.. Come to think of it... Isn't there a new (since 1 year) videogame out called "Gold-Rush" ??

Hmm food for thought... what if you'd have a video-game actually hunting/exploring/mining for minerals.. and then in the end.. you'd get shipped home what you find ? Just as videogames have a set of "hidden keys" to get extra ammo, find hidden doorways etc etc (usually there are cheat-sheets) .. one can create the game in such a way that with more perseverance and more in depth knowledge you will get to higher levels and obtain better/more rare/special specimens.. (and I am not talking about a quiz.. but a real videogame)

[John S. White]

A point that Patrick may perhaps be missing is that there still are lots of collectors who go out and hammer on rocks. There are dozens of quarries within an easy drive of where I live and many of them are accessible to collectors. When visits are arranged, there is usually a very good turn-out even if the rewards tend to be few.

The last part of Patrick's post may contain the seed of an interesting marketing ploy.
What if, for example, a dealer presented a video of his collecting experiences at a particular locality showing all the difficult and nasty elements of getting to the place, moving great volumes of rock, avoiding snakes, getting filthy dirty and sweaty, finding a seam or pocket, removing the specimens, hauling them home and cleaning and prepping them, then offering them for sale to the viewer of the video who was a "virtual" participant in the collecting experience.

Sounds like something that could be interesting.

[mmauthner]

presenting a dvd or some such thing of the actual collection and preparation of a specimen along with every specimen in a particular lot would be a novel and interesting form of documentation that has yet to be done!
nice idea, John!

[Farlang]

First point: I may very well be missing that point John (about thousands of people still rockhounding).

About the DVD .. interesting point... in fact I still have video footage, that we should post online somewhere.. of my friend Paul Geffner of their first big Georgia Amethyst find, the one that Mountain Minerals was selling last year in Tucson. Great great find. Amazing quality Amethyst.

I also think one can even go one step further.. and go interactive. It depends where, for what etc, and how expensive it is to get a mobile or satellite link.. but a webcam would be really great.. "join the expedition". If not that.. then perhaps upload a video every night on your blog.. (youtube also.. but your blog is more fun).

I know Jesse Fisher is probably out there digging at the Rogerly mine.. I will ask him, he usually returns to the mine in August.. perhaps it's worth an experiment.

I definitely believe too little is done to bring the world to the customer.. I know when we had the crystal gazers over it was one of the biggest meetings ever. Mohammad Khan (MK Gems) showed really unique footage of Pakistan's peridot "mines" (more like placing explosives on a mountain wall and run...) and the road to there..I did this to help show what was needed.. we know of US and European mines, but what do people know of these other countries.. it worked.. lots of questions on politics, society etc etc.. I think that adds (to me anyway) just as much value to a mineral as an old label...

John is right.. in a way you're creating a pedigree and that can be made in many different ways.. not just by previous owners...