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Native Iron
  
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Mathias




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PostPosted: Sep 01, 2018 08:46    Post subject: Native Iron  

Another specimen that I purchased recently (it was in a small but old collection which I purchased).


Size approximately 3 cm.

The label said: Native Iron Auvergne.

I couldn't find any information on Mindat.

A google search resulted in the information that it probably originated from a volcano, the Mountain of Graveniere. But that's a guess.

On Mindat almost all native iron is from meteorites.

Has anybody seen such specimen before?


Thanks,

Mathias



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Peter Lemkin




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PostPosted: Sep 01, 2018 12:30    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Found in Greenland, at Fortune Bay, Mellemfjord, Asuk, and elsewhere on the west
coast; on Disko Island, near Uivfaq and Kitdlˆıt. From Ben Bhreck, Scotland. At B¨uhl, near
Weimar, Hesse, Germany. In Poland, near Rouno, Wolyn district. In Russia, at Grushersk, in the Don district; from the Hatanga region, Siberia; in the Huntukungskii massif, Krasnoyarsk Kray; and on the Tolbachik fissure volcano, Kamchatka Peninsula. In the USA, at Cameron, Clinton Co., Missouri; and near New Brunswick, Somerset Co., New Jersey. In Canada, in Ontario, from Cameron Township, Nipissing district, and on St. Joseph Island, Lake Huron.

Typically in small blebs but also in masses; crystals rare. Twinning: On {111}; also on {112} if in lamellar masses.

Cleavage: {001}; parting on {112}. Fracture: Hacky.
Malleable. Hardness = 4 VHN = 160 (100 g load). D(meas.) = 7.3–7.87
D(calc.) = 7.874 Magnetic.

Rare in igneous rocks, especially basalts; in carbonaceous sediments; in volcanic
fumaroles; and in petrified wood, mixed with “limonite” and organic matter.

Associations: Pyrite, magnetite, troilite, w¨ustite, cohenite.

As far as I know - other than a few nearby locations in Greenland native Fe is rare, rare, rare!!!! If you just landed a specimen of Native-Fe you have done something amazing. Few good museums of mineralogy have a sample as nice. I'm not an expert on this species as I have none in my collection, but I do note that some seems to have oxidized or otherwise undergone some surface chemical alteration, yet in some places it looks 'fresh'.....that seems strange to me if an old specimen. Can you find someone to do some test on it, such as Raman spectrography? I'd also check its S.G. and hardness. I'd personally be skeptical until you prove it is native-Fe, due to how rare it is in collections!
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vic rzonca




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PostPosted: Sep 01, 2018 13:12    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

It would be safe to say it would be attracted to a magnet?
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Peter Lemkin




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PostPosted: Sep 01, 2018 14:10    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Just looked and Auvergne-Rhone-Alps is a HUGE region of France....The region covers an area of more than 69,711 Km2 !!!!! - hardly an exacting 'location' for a mineral label - less so for one so rare. It seems your original label only named it as Auvergne - which is 'only' 26,013 Km2. Sorry, but color me skeptical about this being properly labelled, and perhaps properly identified....... While Auvergne does have some dormant volcanoes [the Monts Dore and the Chaîne des Puys include 80 volcanoes], and this is one type of geological location some native-Fe has been found, I don't see any mentioned from France [not that is has not ever been - you could research this] - and one would expect a volcano or nearest town to be mentioned, not an entire province of France.....of 10,044 miles2, 26,013 Km2......at least the name of the volcano chain might be more convincing. How old and how real does the label appear?....perhaps a photo of the labels generally from this collection would be of interest. What do you know of the provenance of this collection?
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Riccardo Modanesi




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PostPosted: Sep 02, 2018 10:59    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Hi to everybody!
According to my over 40-year-old experience as a mineral collector, I can tell you the name "iron" is widely used for almost all minerals containing this element, like pyrite, andradite "iron garnet", hematite, etc. I saw the name "copper" used not only for native copper, but also for bornite, chalcopyrite and even chalcantite, i.e. copper sulfate!!! You all read right: COPPER SULFATE, THE BLUE CRYSTALS!!! Therefore I wouldn't trust so much about those misleading labels! These names are just used for a business aim and/or with the aim of getting a nomenclature easier to be understood by the biggest (ignorant!) majority of people. I mean "ignorant" about minerals and mineralogy, of course!
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.

_________________
Hi! I'm a collector of minerals since 1973 and a gemmologist. On Summer I always visit mines and quarries all over Europe looking for minerals! Ok, there is time to tell you much much more! Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.
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Roger Warin




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PostPosted: Sep 02, 2018 15:40    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Hi,
Native iron is extremely rare on Earth. It is found only within very large iron oxide massifs. Terrestrial troilite (FeS) is also very rare. On Earth we find practically only pyrrhotite or one of its polymorphs.
In space, protected from oxygen, there is a lot of iron metal. Not only in iron meteorites (differentiation of asteroids), but also in chondrules (primordial iron mainly from the decomposition of troilite). In iron meteorites, there is often an excess of nickel which causes exsolutions of taenite out of kamacite that is highlighted by the figures of Widmanstätten.
In chondrules, a chemical fractionation has occurred and there is no excess of Ni. We have kamacite (Fe-Ni) in equilibrium with troilite.



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tan = trolite.
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Mathias




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2018 10:16    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Hi all,

The magnet test; the specimen is attracted by a magnet.

I also had it analyzed by XRF analysis, and as expected it consists of iron.
No Nickel as in meteorites (the specimen didn't have the appearance of a meteorite anyway), but also no chromium and other metals that usually appear in man made alloys.

In addition, I found some literature of native iron (Fe Native) found in France, in the Auvergne.

So this all points towards native iron.

Thanks,
Mathias



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Peter Lemkin




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PostPosted: Sep 04, 2018 12:39    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

While you made a good step in having it analyzed, and I'm sure you would like to find it is Native Fe, I would not rush to judgement - yet. All said above in the line of doubt still holds. The location is very vague without reason and without that being the norm on labels. You have not yet shown us any of the labels or lists yet. Find papers on the analyses of any native iron found in that area of France [if any, indeed, has been found]. Here is an analysis from Blaafjeld, Greenland. One can note it does include Ni and Co as many native Iron specimens do. Many also contain some Carbon (especially those from volcanics).

Chemistry: Blaafjeld, Greenland
Fe 93.16
Ni 2.01
Co 0.80
Cu 0.12
C 2.34
P 0.32
S 0.41
Cl 0.02
SiO2 0.37

Total 99.18

So, you have something that is mostly Fe and thus magnetic - but is it Native Fe? The same collection had some terrestrial Mn-oxide labeled as from the sea bed, I believe. It also had a very unusually large hexagonal-habit calcite for where it was labeled as. Trying to be neutral and fair, I have my doubts about that collection - to the extent you have revealed it to us. You have for reasons known only to you not shown the labels nor told anything about the provenance of the collection. I remain skeptical without further research - likely in French research articles on if any native Fe has been found in the province of France named on the label, and if the chemical analysis of some are close. No doubt there are experts on Native Fe, though I admit I do not know who they might be at this time. You might try to find out who they are and contact one or more of them.
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Mathias




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PostPosted: Sep 05, 2018 00:25    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Regarding the label;

On the downside of the jousi box there was a hand written label, with the text:
"Eisen ged. Auvergne Frankreich".

Regarding the literature I found by googling "Fer Natif Auvergne"; see the photo.

Regards,
Mathias



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Mathias




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PostPosted: Sep 05, 2018 00:35    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

I would also like to say that I think it doesn't make sense if somebody puts a false label on this specimen. The specimen has no value no matter if its right or wrong. Moreover, if somebody puts a wrong label on the specimen, on purpose, then "Auvergne" is a far fetched place to put on a wrong label; there are places that are far more plausible than Auvergne.


3.jpg
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Mathias




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PostPosted: Sep 05, 2018 01:17    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

To Peter Lemkin;

The manganese nodule didn't come from this collection.

The Hexagonal calcite however did. Probably with the wrong label. Andreasberg seems to be the true location based on the comments.

I also would like to mention something about element analysis:
The XRF we used doesn't detect Carbon and other <12 elements.
Also it measures only a square mm of the surface where the composition can differ from the bulk material.

Thanks for all your comments,

Mathias
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PostPosted: Sep 05, 2018 22:29    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

It may well be iron and may well be from Auvergne, and the label may not be intentionally false, and yet nevertheless not be truly native, because the word "native" gets used rather loosely by some people to include things like accidental smelter products, which I suspect is what happened here. But an interesting conversation piece to be sure, and worth keeping.

I see that phenomenon continually in Bolivia, with collectors there calling lead, tin, silver, bismuth from smelter accidents all "native", not to intentionally deceive but because they weren't made on purpose so they could perhaps, to some slight extent, be perhaps considered at least partially "natural". The desire for native elements is strong.
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2018 17:06    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Mathias wrote:

Hi Alfredo,

You state that the label may not be intentionaly false?

Why wouldn't the label be true?
Just because it is rare doesn't automatically mean "false" or from a smelter.

There's plenty of literature stating that native iron has been found in the Auvergne province; You even find it on wikipedia.fr;

France
avec les laves basaltiques et la trachyte, dans les Monts d'Auvergne jusqu'en Aubrac

There's more evidence that the specimen is what the label states than something else.
The fact that smelter specimen exist, and that labels may be false is no evidence.

XRF analysis proofs 95% Fe.
There are other minerals present on the specimen.
I've seen some smelter specimens: they are shiny, smooth, look typically like metal, they look different.

From all the Greenland native iron specimen on mindat i could easily follow the same reasoning that you did with regard to my specimen; probably from a smelter and false label. Same counts for most meteorites etc. etc.

Best regards and thanks.

Mathias


Mathias,

To publish links here please read and use: Links within the message forum
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Peter Lemkin




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PostPosted: Sep 22, 2018 02:09    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Mathias wrote:

Hi Alfredo,

You state that the label may not be intentionaly false?

Why wouldn't the label be true?
Just because it is rare doesn't automatically mean "false" or from a smelter.

There's plenty of literature stating that native iron has been found in the Auvergne province; You even find it on wikipedia(.)fr;

France
avec les laves basaltiques et la trachyte, dans les Monts d'Auvergne jusqu'en Aubrac

There's more evidence that the specimen is what the label states than something else.
The fact that smelter specimen exist, and that labels may be false is no evidence.

XRF analysis proofs 95% Fe.
There are other minerals present on the specimen.
I've seen some smelter specimens: they are shiny, smooth, look typically like metal, they look different.

From all the Greenland native iron specimen on mindat i could easily follow the same reasoning that you did with regard to my specimen; probably from a smelter and false label. Same counts for most meteorites etc. etc.

Best regards and thanks.

Mathias


Mathias,

Mathias, From the start is was / is clear you want this to be Native Fe. Many of us would wish the exact same were it our specimen. However, none of those who have voiced caution on that conclusion or doubt have any reason to do so out of any motive other than their experience or trying to find the truth and helping you to do so. It seem to me you reject any negative evidence and embrace any positive evidence - using predictable self-serving analogies and possibly biased 'logic'. I don't mean this as an attack, fully realizing you may well take it as such. If you want to believe it is Native Fe, I think you will always find a way to do so. If you want to know the truth, you have to TRY to be a little objective, and perhaps do more tests and research. Native Fe is VERY rare - that fact, I believe, is part of the reason there has been some doubt by others - along with their other points. I hope for your sake it is Native Fe...but I suggest you use scientific analysis and protocol -and not emotion and wishful thinking. No one here, I think, hopes or wishes your specimen to not be Native Fe. There are experts who can help decide this if they are given the chance with the specimen in question in their hands and labs. Peace and good luck.
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Roger Warin




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PostPosted: Sep 22, 2018 04:20    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Hi Mathias,
From a strictly chemical point of view, it is impossible to find native iron on our planet, with the exception of the inner part of some huge iron ore massifs (Goenland - Ovifak).
The presence of nickel slows oxidation.
Iron is a highly reactive element and it is not known to keep it in rocks in the metallic state. This is the difference of what happened in asteroids in which the medium was reducing.
Up to - 2 Ga, the Earth was in a reducing medium. Geological evidence, the first deposits of Fe2O3 date from 2 Ga to 1.5 Ga. The great oxidation of the Earth occurred between - 1.8 and 2.4 Ga.
Under these conditions, almost all the native iron has oxidized.
Roger Warin, Ph.D.
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Mathias




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PostPosted: Oct 06, 2018 02:53    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Roger and Peter thanks,

A lot of minerals are from thermodynimics point of view unstable at the surface of our earth; where there's oxygen, humidity, light, etc. But they are more or less stable because degradation is extremely slow. Native iron may be passivated by the presence of a thin oxide layer formed upon exposure to oxygen and water.

It is not that I want my specimen to be truly native iron, I paid peanuts for the specimen, and it looks like shit, sorry for the word, but I believe what we are talking about here is:

Is a specimen what it says it is (by labels, appearance, verbal information, analysis, etc.) until there's evidence that it isn't or, the opposite approach: a specimen is only determined until there's 100% proof.

Best regards,
Mathias
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Mathias




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PostPosted: Oct 06, 2018 02:55    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Hi Peter,

Can you name any of the experts you've mentioned?
I could send the specimen by mail.

Thanks,
Mathias.
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Peter Lemkin




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PostPosted: Oct 06, 2018 03:27    Post subject: Re: Native Iron  

Mathias wrote:
Hi Peter,

Can you name any of the experts you've mentioned?
I could send the specimen by mail.

Thanks,
Mathias.


I personally don't know any - as I said 'native iron' is exceptionally rare - and that you paid a 'pittance' for a possible sample is stunning and/or curious.....

Online there are scientific articles on the subject and I'm sure the list of references would contain some names of experts - perhaps some local or not far from you. I'd contact them before sending if you hope to get it returned. I'm sure you can search as well as I can, but I note a few I found:

Native iron in the Earth and space
D. M. PecherskyD. M. KuzinaG. P. Markov, V. A. Tsel’movich gpmarkov(at)yandex(dot)ru

A New Occurrence of Terrestrial Native Iron in the Earth’s Surface: The Ilia Thermogenic Travertine Case, Northwestern Euboea, Greece Christos Kanellopoulos 1,2,* [OrcID] , ckanellopoulos(at)gmail(dot)com Eugenia Valsami-Jones 3,4 , Panagiotis Voudouris 1 , Christina Stouraiti 1 [OrcID] , Robert Moritz 2 , Constantinos Mavrogonatos 1 [OrcID] and Panagiotis Mitropoulos 1,

Native iron (–platinum) ores from the Siberian Platform trap intrusions V. V. Ryabov & A. A. Lapkovsky

etc. - Note some of these are free and some are behind a paywall....but I'm sure if you hunt enough you'll find free ones or a scholarly reference book on the subject. One could also ask at a good Geology or Mineralogy Department within some university or School of Mines.
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