FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Jordi Fabre]

[Ed Huskinson]

Yes Carles. Well, sort of. Some folks just have deeper pockets than others, and will not settle for anything less than the best. Perfectly understandable. Part of what I said simply goes to the "sticker shock factor". I'm not slammin' anyone, just poking fun. Many discussions have been had about the mineral collecting brotherhood. I have heard people say "It has become an elitist's hobby". Who can afford such prices.?! Rock Currier covered it well in his series of columns in the MR: "About Mineral Collecting". What a great read!!! I bought 5 of the issues they put out that combines the six columns. Great investment, and I've been giving them out to kids who seem to have the sort of mind set that we mineral collectors exhibit. (Oohh, there's a pun).

This Forum is proof that it is not an elitist's hobby. We have some rocks, and we share with our buddies. Here's a photo of my "metavonhuneite" (or whatever {this is a story unto itself, I'll explain later}). And your buddies get to comment on it, and perhaps learn something new about an obscure locality and so forth. Everyone just enjoys it. Like when someone comes to your house and you both/all go into the mineral room or gather around your display case(s) and you all mineralize. It's fun, and it's what we do.

Revisit Rock's columns, or buy and read the little supplement that combines them. He points out that some of us are competitive by nature. I used to be. I'd buy something because I thought that the specimen would garner points in competition. Now things are different for me. Now, like say, the Spanns, I buy whatever I run across that pleases me, even if it is only an inexpensive thumbnail or whatever. Usually when I buy something, I know exactly where in my display case the piece will wind up and how it will fit in with it's neighbor(s). Like Nurbo's Elmwood calcite next to his Welsh calcite.

True, many things that please me are out of reach, but thanks to so many of the people who risk the exposure to exhibit, I/we get to see the higher end stuff. I'm grateful for that. As for ICONS, well, there's a book.

And I think that there are some ICON owners who do peruse FMF without posting and commenting. Why draw attention to themselves and what they have?? I'm approaching a line here, one that should not be crossed I'm thinking. Methinks it's time to step back, regroup, and wait for the next posting.

I enjoy the Forum so much, just wish I had more time to expostulate/participate. And I have a due diligence drill campaign kicking off tomorrow. I'll be tied up at the rig all day, every day, able to check the FMF at night perhaps, but, unless it's something that screams for a reply, I'll be silent for the next 10 to 14 days, sitting beside a screaming drill rig (what Pete Megaw calls a "rotary truth machine") in the desert west of Kingman. But hey, that's a good thing. Means money in the bank, and money in the specimen acquisition fund. I'm saving up for a down payment on an ICON.

I've rambled enough. More later,

Ed

Ps: there's a point to be made in here somewhere, but you'll have to dig it out yourself, I'm lost on re-reading it.

[Carles Millan]

[Peter Megaw]

Gee Ed, I think I've got a vonhuneite and a metavonhuneite stashed away somewhere, they are probably getting rare! Wonder why they're not listed in Fleischer?

[Gail]

I don't even like the word ELITE or what it is perceived as.
I like to think of everyone as Collectors. Period.

Having an assigned "Class" is rather silly.

[Tobi]

Hi all,

it is a very interesting question whether mineral collecting is an elitist's hobby or not. My opinion is: It is not! And i agree with Carles and Ed: This forum is really proof that you don't need to be a millionaire to love minerals and to join a community with fellow collectors. Of course, there may be some who collect only the best of the best and maybe consider minor quality minerals as rubbish or so. But why do you mind? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? So everybody who likes his rocks has a good collection in some way - because it pleases him! Sure, if you desire to built up a world renowned high end collection, you need to invest lots of money. But even without a fat purse you can purchase beautiful minerals, and after years or decades of collecting they will fill some display cases which make you happy and please your eyes. And THAT'S the sense of it all, isn't it?

But there is one thing that i want to mention: I often see that especially in the U.S. minerals are very expensive and fine specimens really seem to be reserved for so called money collectors. Here in Germany the prices are much more affordable, so that you can purchase good minerals even if without paying exorbitant prices. When i compare German prices to American prices, it sometimes is quite a shock. Comparable specimens on the American market (same location, same size, same quality) sometimes cost ten times the price of what they cost in Germany. How come?

[Carles Millan]

[alfredo]

Tobias wrote "When i compare German prices to American prices, it sometimes is quite a shock. Comparable specimens on the American market (same location, same size, same quality) sometimes cost ten times the price of what they cost in Germany. How come?"

The pricing situation is much more complex than that, Tobias. You are comparing a "reasonable" seller in Germany with an "elite" seller in America - an unsound comparison. If you walk around the Mineralientage in Munich, or around the Tucson and Denver shows in the USA, you can find similar specimens with a x10 price difference at different booths in the same show! So it's not the country that makes the difference. If it were, all American collectors would be rushing to Germany to buy specimens, and all German dealers would be crowding into America to sell their specimens - it is afterall a free international market; and yes, you can find a few tens of Americans shopping at German shows, just like you'll find a few tens of German collectors shopping at Munich and Denver. Ditto for the sellers. The moral is that it pays to be observant, patient, and shop around a lot, in whatever country you're in.

Gluck auf,
Alfredo

[lluis]

Hi, List

I should agree with Alfredo.
I was yesterday shocked by a price of a gemmy orthoclase, very similar to one that i bought from a polish friend: tag was around 50x mine. Pity is that I bought only one (I am a dummy one; write thousand of times)!.
But I buy specimens in USA that are bargains compared with similar pieces in Europe.
Wish I could buy another specimen of some specimens!

So, question, as Alfredo says, of patience...and a lot of good luck!

Glück auf!

Lluís

[Tobi]

Hi Alfredo,

sorry if i generalized something. Of course i don't see much of the reasonable or "ordinary" dealers and shows from the U.S., but even when i look at the prices of the "elite" dealers on their websites or at the big mineral shows, these prices sometimes seem exorbitant to me in comparison to the elite sellers/dealers here in Germany.

When i look at reports of Tucson or Denver, i sometimes see specimens which are absolutely not special, labeled with many hundreds of dollars. And the better ones, which would cost you some hundreds of euros in Germany, have a price range of many thousands of dollars. Of course special specimens deserve a high price. And i accept that a giant plate of Sweet Home Mine rhodochrosite costs a 10.000 or more dollars. But i also see common material like Sakoany Mine celestite, Huanzala Mine pyrite or Moroccan vanadinite labeled with hundreds of dollars even on small and unimposing specimens. Very seldom i see such prices on a German show, and i dont' think anybody would pay them.

But i know that mineral prices are a special topic where you can hardly discuss what is acceptable and what is not. So again i didn't want to generalize or simplify something, that was just my humble opinion to an observation i made through the past years ...

Glückauf!

Tobi

[Ed Huskinson]

Yeah, me too Gail. We are all collectors, and we all enjoy our "... harmless obsessive benevolent common concern." Tom Moore, MR, Vol 28, #1. Tom says it best with that quote.

As to why higher prices here than in Germany, the same situation may be reflected by the motel prices in Tucson. A $50.00 room books for $150.00 (or whatever) during February. You ask the clerk behind the desk "Why?" The answer is usually something like "Well, that's the 'Gem Show Rate'." The same room at the end of February or the beginning of March is back to it's normal price.

So perhaps this same situation or mindset is at work here. Perhaps. Because I have not been to Germany or Ste Marie Aux Mines during a show and then afterward for comparison, I'm not speaking from a position of strength here. One would have to buy some things from european dealers at their shops, and then compare their prices at the bourses. Same with the American dealers. Do they lower their prices a bit for the continent? I have not been able to examine this issue. The more urbane or well-traveled collectors have the experience to draw upon in this regard. It'll be interesting to see how the responses shake out.

Sorry to have roiled the waters with my quote about "... an elitist's hobby". It's not something I said, rather something I heard someone (well, more than one person) say. It made me think for a minute, especially when viewing the prices for, say, good adamite specimens from Mapimi. Granted, the price should reflect availability, but come on..... Phosphophyllite, now that I can understand.

When I decide to retire (yeah, right, like I ever will!), I'll probably be able to live off what my adamites alone will sell for. I bought at the source for Miguel, and those he declined, I kept. So that's good, eh? Of course it depends on which dealer opts to help me deaccession my minerals. I've come to realize that I cannot take them to my grave, clutched to my chest. The best plan may be to dispose of them myself. Les is already down for the Veta Grande hematite.... Ah well, no sense being maudlin. I plan to live forever. So far, so good.

Well, enjoy. I'm back out to the drill rig.

More later.

Ed

Ps. Thanks Jordi for the help with my espanol callejero quebrado.

[Gail]

The world will be better for it, if you live forever Ed!

[Peter Megaw]

Ed, just live longer than Les please...Lauren loves that rock too! Maybe Les would settle for a metavonhuneite from Arizona?

One of the wonderful aspects of our collective obsession is that, because of the "inconsistencies" in mineral specimens, there are too many avenues in (but for those like you/me only one way out!) for that to work. I can think of few other collectibles...fine art excepted...where "perfection" cannot be almost absolutely defined against a well known standard. Minerals (and most mineral collectors) simply refuse to follow the rules, opening the door for the panoplay of collecting philosophies that have been discussed here for years...all of which can generate signficantly interesting collections. Is that elitist.

[GneissWare]

[Jesse Fisher]

Tobias,
As someone who regularly attends both the Tucson and Munich shows, I can say that overall, I see no difference what so ever between how minerals are priced in Europe as opposed to the US. The prices being ask for the top specimens by dealers in the "Pavilion" at Mineralientage Munchen are no different than what one will see wandering from room to room at the Westward Look show. Alternately, if one is willing to invest the time and effort to search out bargains, they are there. It just takes more work and a knowledge of what one is looking at because they are usually not in a flashy display case surrounded by dozens of other equally flashy minerals.

I think that perhaps many European collectors who do not travel to the major US shows and seen what is on offer themselves end up with somewhat biased view of the mineral market in this country based on the high price items that a few US dealers will post on their websites. Also, I think there is an natural tendency for those who write show reports to dwell on what is flashy and expensive. Sensationalism is a tried and true way to attract readers and get tongues wagging.

If you haven't been to the Tucson show, I would highly recommend it. You may find the airfare higher than I would (considering I can drive to the show), but there are always good minerals to be found for reasonable prices.

Cheers,
Jesse

[Peter Megaw]

Some are in fact the same dealers! I've always suspected that some of the lazier (smarter?) ones put on prices that are exorbitant in either dollars or euros and then adjust their discount to account for the exchange rate. Folks who study barter-market systems indicate that most times what you ultimately pay averages 60% of the asking price..plednty of room to move there

[Jesse Fisher]

Just because you see an exorbitant price on a mineral doesn't mean that's what it sold for. There are certain dealers (and not just American ones) who seem to like to "push the envelope" on prices. If someone actually pays it then the dealer has set a precedent which establishes a new reference point for what such a specimen is worth. If no one bites, then the specimen is often quietly discounted to move it along.

I think one of the things that encourages this sort of sales tactic is that most of us Westerners are not in the habit of bargaining for things. Many people won't even ask for discounts because they're afraid to look cheap in public. Some even seem to take it as a badge of honor that they can afford to spend that sort of money. Sort of like wearing designer-logo clothing instead of the normal stuff in order to show off that you can afford to spend $100 on a t-shirt.

[Peter Megaw]

Head-on collision between Rock Currier's comment that "a mineral is worth what someone will pay for it" and larry Conklin's assertion that "any mineral that sells is underpriced"

[alfredo]

For several years (and perhaps still now) Russians and other eastern European dealers were not changing their price labels (those who had any price labels at all) between Tucson and Munich - too much work, so what was 25 dollars in Tucson became 25 euros in Munich. When I asked one how he could justify this, he said "Well, in Europe I give up to 30% discount and in USA only 20%". Well, a little arithmetic shows that Europeans are still paying much more (the opposite of Tobias' impression)! So I think that pricing comparisons are so chaotic, and our self-observed "statistical sample size" is so small, that price comparison becomes meaningless.

I agree with Jesse that show reporters tend to give a rather skewed image of the offerings, since they tend to spend more time in the flashier booths of the more famous dealers. Tom Moore of the Mineralogical Record does a good job of ferreting out interesting novelties from little-known sellers, but most other show reporters leave me with the impression that the novelties were mostly giant gem crystals.

[Ed Huskinson]

Eh Pete, they're not going to bite on the metavonhuneite. I was hoping that John White might come out swinging on that one, but.... Still, we'll have to 'splain it sometime. I can hear it now: "Lucy! I mean Eddie!! You got some 'splainin' to do!".

The drillers intercepted me on the way back out there. Some glitch in the hydraulics. Woo hoo!! So I'm back home, building my drill log.

I've been thinking about this elitist thing. Going back to the Middle Ages, you never hear about Murf the Serf's collection. You hear about Count So-and-so's collection or King what's his name's collection. Why are there no other collector's here in Kingman? Well, there's Carlos Williams, the guy who works out at Mineral Park, co-authored the MR article on wulfenite and wavellite (a phosphate, makes sense) from Mineral Park. He has a nice collection, but does not display it. Bud Hillemeyer has a cabinet in his home up toward the Huallapais. Ed Allabaugh lived only 1 block away from me, but he succumbed some years ago to cancer. Of course there's a boatload of rock-lickers here, and I'm a member of the local 'stoners (Mohave County Gemstoners) rock club. The pot-lucks are the best. There are so few of us who actually collect minerals, compared to the general population. Perhaps because we mineral collectors are indeed, "elite". I'm thinking that Wendell has some statistics on this, even just the Mineralogical Record subscription list, compared with the current population of the US. Factor in world-wide subscription, and hey, we are indeed elitists. We fit the definition (thanks Carles): "A special group of people with a superior intellectual (well, narrowly restricted, ie, to rocks and minerals), social (we might not belong to the same circles, run with the same people as it were, but we are bound by a common concern/thread (like this one!). (Social? Just read the way that Gail signs off. She gets it.), or economic status.". This last is tough, although I realize that we have progressed so far when compared to the serfs (or whomever) of the middle ages, that we would definitely be characterized as "upper crust" by their standards. Something like that. One thing for sure, we have much more free time, because have to devote much less time to simply making ends meet, feeding the family. Time is money. We have so much more free time now, compared to "then". I dunno. Just free association while driving through Golden Valley. Maybe it's the heat...

So. Compared with the general population we probably could be construed as being elite, when using the narrow parameters listed above. I like the idea of being "elite". Compared to the average "Joe Schmoe", we mineral collectors all know so much more about rocks and minerals. And, if someone expresses interest in our "common concern" (again Tom Moore), we welcome him/her with open arms, and make room for them. "Welcome to the elite world of mineral collecting. Regardless of your level of interest, start saving your money to buy rocks".

Here's a picture of the hematite to assuage Gneissware. This was taken before I knew how to use my close-up mode. I'll be re-photographing it later, after the crush of the drill campaign has subsided.

As for outliving Les: quien sabe? But I've already written my epitaph: "Here lies Ed Huskinson. At the trough of life, he pigged out."
I figure that pretty much pegs it.

'starde,

Ed