FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Jordi Fabre]

[Ed Huskinson]

Yes Carles. Well, sort of. Some folks just have deeper pockets than others, and will not settle for anything less than the best. Perfectly understandable. Part of what I said simply goes to the "sticker shock factor". I'm not slammin' anyone, just poking fun. Many discussions have been had about the mineral collecting brotherhood. I have heard people say "It has become an elitist's hobby". Who can afford such prices.?! Rock Currier covered it well in his series of columns in the MR: "About Mineral Collecting". What a great read!!! I bought 5 of the issues they put out that combines the six columns. Great investment, and I've been giving them out to kids who seem to have the sort of mind set that we mineral collectors exhibit. (Oohh, there's a pun).

This Forum is proof that it is not an elitist's hobby. We have some rocks, and we share with our buddies. Here's a photo of my "metavonhuneite" (or whatever {this is a story unto itself, I'll explain later}). And your buddies get to comment on it, and perhaps learn something new about an obscure locality and so forth. Everyone just enjoys it. Like when someone comes to your house and you both/all go into the mineral room or gather around your display case(s) and you all mineralize. It's fun, and it's what we do.

Revisit Rock's columns, or buy and read the little supplement that combines them. He points out that some of us are competitive by nature. I used to be. I'd buy something because I thought that the specimen would garner points in competition. Now things are different for me. Now, like say, the Spanns, I buy whatever I run across that pleases me, even if it is only an inexpensive thumbnail or whatever. Usually when I buy something, I know exactly where in my display case the piece will wind up and how it will fit in with it's neighbor(s). Like Nurbo's Elmwood calcite next to his Welsh calcite.

True, many things that please me are out of reach, but thanks to so many of the people who risk the exposure to exhibit, I/we get to see the higher end stuff. I'm grateful for that. As for ICONS, well, there's a book.

And I think that there are some ICON owners who do peruse FMF without posting and commenting. Why draw attention to themselves and what they have?? I'm approaching a line here, one that should not be crossed I'm thinking. Methinks it's time to step back, regroup, and wait for the next posting.

I enjoy the Forum so much, just wish I had more time to expostulate/participate. And I have a due diligence drill campaign kicking off tomorrow. I'll be tied up at the rig all day, every day, able to check the FMF at night perhaps, but, unless it's something that screams for a reply, I'll be silent for the next 10 to 14 days, sitting beside a screaming drill rig (what Pete Megaw calls a "rotary truth machine") in the desert west of Kingman. But hey, that's a good thing. Means money in the bank, and money in the specimen acquisition fund. I'm saving up for a down payment on an ICON.

I've rambled enough. More later,

Ed

Ps: there's a point to be made in here somewhere, but you'll have to dig it out yourself, I'm lost on re-reading it.

[Carles Millan]

[Peter Megaw]

Gee Ed, I think I've got a vonhuneite and a metavonhuneite stashed away somewhere, they are probably getting rare! Wonder why they're not listed in Fleischer?

[Gail]

I don't even like the word ELITE or what it is perceived as.
I like to think of everyone as Collectors. Period.

Having an assigned "Class" is rather silly.

[Tobi]

Hi all,

it is a very interesting question whether mineral collecting is an elitist's hobby or not. My opinion is: It is not! And i agree with Carles and Ed: This forum is really proof that you don't need to be a millionaire to love minerals and to join a community with fellow collectors. Of course, there may be some who collect only the best of the best and maybe consider minor quality minerals as rubbish or so. But why do you mind? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? So everybody who likes his rocks has a good collection in some way - because it pleases him! Sure, if you desire to built up a world renowned high end collection, you need to invest lots of money. But even without a fat purse you can purchase beautiful minerals, and after years or decades of collecting they will fill some display cases which make you happy and please your eyes. And THAT'S the sense of it all, isn't it?

But there is one thing that i want to mention: I often see that especially in the U.S. minerals are very expensive and fine specimens really seem to be reserved for so called money collectors. Here in Germany the prices are much more affordable, so that you can purchase good minerals even if without paying exorbitant prices. When i compare German prices to American prices, it sometimes is quite a shock. Comparable specimens on the American market (same location, same size, same quality) sometimes cost ten times the price of what they cost in Germany. How come?

[Carles Millan]

[alfredo]

Tobias wrote "When i compare German prices to American prices, it sometimes is quite a shock. Comparable specimens on the American market (same location, same size, same quality) sometimes cost ten times the price of what they cost in Germany. How come?"

The pricing situation is much more complex than that, Tobias. You are comparing a "reasonable" seller in Germany with an "elite" seller in America - an unsound comparison. If you walk around the Mineralientage in Munich, or around the Tucson and Denver shows in the USA, you can find similar specimens with a x10 price difference at different booths in the same show! So it's not the country that makes the difference. If it were, all American collectors would be rushing to Germany to buy specimens, and all German dealers would be crowding into America to sell their specimens - it is afterall a free international market; and yes, you can find a few tens of Americans shopping at German shows, just like you'll find a few tens of German collectors shopping at Munich and Denver. Ditto for the sellers. The moral is that it pays to be observant, patient, and shop around a lot, in whatever country you're in.

Gluck auf,
Alfredo

[lluis]

Hi, List

I should agree with Alfredo.
I was yesterday shocked by a price of a gemmy orthoclase, very similar to one that i bought from a polish friend: tag was around 50x mine. Pity is that I bought only one (I am a dummy one; write thousand of times)!.
But I buy specimens in USA that are bargains compared with similar pieces in Europe.
Wish I could buy another specimen of some specimens!

So, question, as Alfredo says, of patience...and a lot of good luck!

Glück auf!

Lluís

[Tobi]

Hi Alfredo,

sorry if i generalized something. Of course i don't see much of the reasonable or "ordinary" dealers and shows from the U.S., but even when i look at the prices of the "elite" dealers on their websites or at the big mineral shows, these prices sometimes seem exorbitant to me in comparison to the elite sellers/dealers here in Germany.

When i look at reports of Tucson or Denver, i sometimes see specimens which are absolutely not special, labeled with many hundreds of dollars. And the better ones, which would cost you some hundreds of euros in Germany, have a price range of many thousands of dollars. Of course special specimens deserve a high price. And i accept that a giant plate of Sweet Home Mine rhodochrosite costs a 10.000 or more dollars. But i also see common material like Sakoany Mine celestite, Huanzala Mine pyrite or Moroccan vanadinite labeled with hundreds of dollars even on small and unimposing specimens. Very seldom i see such prices on a German show, and i dont' think anybody would pay them.

But i know that mineral prices are a special topic where you can hardly discuss what is acceptable and what is not. So again i didn't want to generalize or simplify something, that was just my humble opinion to an observation i made through the past years ...

Glückauf!

Tobi

[Ed Huskinson]

Yeah, me too Gail. We are all collectors, and we all enjoy our "... harmless obsessive benevolent common concern." Tom Moore, MR, Vol 28, #1. Tom says it best with that quote.

As to why higher prices here than in Germany, the same situation may be reflected by the motel prices in Tucson. A $50.00 room books for $150.00 (or whatever) during February. You ask the clerk behind the desk "Why?" The answer is usually something like "Well, that's the 'Gem Show Rate'." The same room at the end of February or the beginning of March is back to it's normal price.

So perhaps this same situation or mindset is at work here. Perhaps. Because I have not been to Germany or Ste Marie Aux Mines during a show and then afterward for comparison, I'm not speaking from a position of strength here. One would have to buy some things from european dealers at their shops, and then compare their prices at the bourses. Same with the American dealers. Do they lower their prices a bit for the continent? I have not been able to examine this issue. The more urbane or well-traveled collectors have the experience to draw upon in this regard. It'll be interesting to see how the responses shake out.

Sorry to have roiled the waters with my quote about "... an elitist's hobby". It's not something I said, rather something I heard someone (well, more than one person) say. It made me think for a minute, especially when viewing the prices for, say, good adamite specimens from Mapimi. Granted, the price should reflect availability, but come on..... Phosphophyllite, now that I can understand.

When I decide to retire (yeah, right, like I ever will!), I'll probably be able to live off what my adamites alone will sell for. I bought at the source for Miguel, and those he declined, I kept. So that's good, eh? Of course it depends on which dealer opts to help me deaccession my minerals. I've come to realize that I cannot take them to my grave, clutched to my chest. The best plan may be to dispose of them myself. Les is already down for the Veta Grande hematite.... Ah well, no sense being maudlin. I plan to live forever. So far, so good.

Well, enjoy. I'm back out to the drill rig.

More later.

Ed

Ps. Thanks Jordi for the help with my espanol callejero quebrado.

[Gail]

The world will be better for it, if you live forever Ed!

[Peter Megaw]

Ed, just live longer than Les please...Lauren loves that rock too! Maybe Les would settle for a metavonhuneite from Arizona?

One of the wonderful aspects of our collective obsession is that, because of the "inconsistencies" in mineral specimens, there are too many avenues in (but for those like you/me only one way out!) for that to work. I can think of few other collectibles...fine art excepted...where "perfection" cannot be almost absolutely defined against a well known standard. Minerals (and most mineral collectors) simply refuse to follow the rules, opening the door for the panoplay of collecting philosophies that have been discussed here for years...all of which can generate signficantly interesting collections. Is that elitist.

[GneissWare]

[Jesse Fisher]

Tobias,
As someone who regularly attends both the Tucson and Munich shows, I can say that overall, I see no difference what so ever between how minerals are priced in Europe as opposed to the US. The prices being ask for the top specimens by dealers in the "Pavilion" at Mineralientage Munchen are no different than what one will see wandering from room to room at the Westward Look show. Alternately, if one is willing to invest the time and effort to search out bargains, they are there. It just takes more work and a knowledge of what one is looking at because they are usually not in a flashy display case surrounded by dozens of other equally flashy minerals.

I think that perhaps many European collectors who do not travel to the major US shows and seen what is on offer themselves end up with somewhat biased view of the mineral market in this country based on the high price items that a few US dealers will post on their websites. Also, I think there is an natural tendency for those who write show reports to dwell on what is flashy and expensive. Sensationalism is a tried and true way to attract readers and get tongues wagging.

If you haven't been to the Tucson show, I would highly recommend it. You may find the airfare higher than I would (considering I can drive to the show), but there are always good minerals to be found for reasonable prices.

Cheers,
Jesse