FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[John S. White]

I entered this question on Gail's thread and it sort of got buried so I am posting it again here as a new topic:

The mineral hobby is the only one with which I am familiar. The Tucson "Show" actually runs for just over two weeks. Therefore, I am wondering if there are shows relating to other forms of collecting that last as long.

[Carles Curto]

Those we are most familiar to European shows we have noticed, last years, an impudent increasing on prices of minerals. I suppose it's no different in USA.

On shows (and on the web also), even thinking in a range of simply correct qualities, prices up 1500$ frequently looks evidently stupid (“very high” quality samples are a different theme). Viewing this, we really doubt that the "mineral hobby" is truly reflected in shows.

I feel sorry for the maximalists (so much often directly interested dealers working with absolutely disparate prices) but I believe that they are creating (they hat yet created) an enormous economic bubble related to minerals.

And it will explode.

When the "mineralogical big-bang" will occur the most affected are not going to be the collectors (against the vice of to demand there is the virtue of not to give). In some moment, a more or less massive answer of collectors will paralyze the main level (now the modest range of prices) of the current market with the subsequent consequences for dealers.

From the free market (simple offer-demand) we had passed to a roughly manipulate imposition of interested massive techniques of information-misinformation to adapt the market to the personal interests of some few dealers and trusts (fortunately, a hard nucleus of rational dealers resists), just creating false expectations on costs and prices (how is it possible that a sample marked on 40.000 $ is sold by 12.000 $?).

Generally the next step should be the legal intervention of public Finance (the warning is not the traitor, just think).

Dealers, have you all the correct documents on your hands?

[John S. White]

Carles, an interesting subject indeed, but not one that I was trying to explore. Pricing and the future of the upscale mineral business is a good topic, but for a different thread. I simply would like to know if shows for other hobbies are known to last for over two weeks, as is the case at Tucson. It is hard for me to imagine that other types of shows can outlast the Tucson circus. Some visitors to this Forum are surely familiiar with shows in other hobbies and can address my question.

[Carles Curto]

Well, John (excuse me for the last answer, just a result of a sudden elevation of blood temperature), my answer to your asking is "evidently not" except, maybe, for the most expanded traditional hobbies with a substrata of an important economic status.
The art or the antiques, for example have very important shows in Europe, but in the concrete case of Antiques they had been decaying due to the protective laws all over the world, a situation that it is progressively extending to the fossils. In Barcelona, for example the shows of disc or the comic for collection are as important as the main mineralogical show in the city (Expominer), this one being modest, is true, but the level of mineral collecting in our country is modest.
Maybe we should ask to our colleagues in Germany about the models of trains and cars, or even about the philately.

[keldjarn]

It would have to be the Olympic sports shows with the collecting of medals and national pride...
There are many events in the antique and collectible world lasting many days - but weeks ?
In the mineral world the Tucson shows are special due to the long duration - partly caused by the participant wish to enjoy a break in a better climate during the cold winter spell up north (?). Having followed the shows for about 20 years I feel it is time for them to contract.. - but it is easier to see the mechamisms creating the expansion than the way show organizers and motel owners would renounce part of their turn-over by reducing the show periods. For dealers (and purchasers) the venues in Tucson may become less attractive due to their duration. I know a number of dealers who do not come to the shows anymore because they are less compact than i.e. Denver, Munich or St.Marie. Most collectors and visitors only come for a few days or a week. Most of the time the dealers are just hanging around their motel rooms with no business. It is waste of time (and money) both for the dealers and the visitors/purchaser.
We like to believe that market forces tend to optimize transactions to reduce the costs on the part of both buyers and sellers. The development of the length of theTucson show period may be an example that this is not always the case. It also has an effect of the minerals offered (much less diversity of systematic and "ordinary" specimens than 20 years ago) and the sometimes outragous prices asked for the few specimens some of the dealeres mange to sell each day. (There is in a way a link between the topic you raise about the length of the Tucson show periode, the post by Carles on prices and the changing profile of the Tucson mineral venues).

Knut

[Darren]

Well, there is an international stamp exhibition - London 2010 - that runs for 8 days. Not quite 2 weeks but a fair amount of time. There's also a show in Portugal that runs for 10 days.

[David Von Bargen]

I believe that some of the activities at Quartzite run between 2 and 4 months. There are a number of antique shows that last up to 6 days (and run three times a year). Renaissance fairs can run up to a couple of months, but sanely are limited to weekends. The EAA AirVenture Oshkosh lasts for a week.

[John S. White]

Thank you Knut, right on target. I personally have the luxury of being able to stay in Tucson for two weeks and yet I am always a little frustrated that I know of people who are there and buying several days before I arrive. To a large degree I am looking for "sleepers" and for this reason I am eager to get to Tucson early in the game.

As long as this attitude prevails and the opportunity to shop early exists, dealers will always be tempted to open just a day or two earlier, thus eliminating the possibility of anyone ever shortening the duration of the whole spectacle. While Munich remains compact in time, St. Marie-aux-Mines has expanded quite a lot as there are many early sellers and buyers, meaning that that show now lasts for over a week. The last time I went for the "first day" of the show my impression was that all the really good bargains had been sold days before.

But my question still remains, are there other types of show that last as long as Tucson?

[Tracy]

John, I think that the only way to properly answer your question is to define precisely what constitutes the essence of the Tucson "show" (I put "show" in quotations because I have no fixed definition of what a "show" is). Is it a place where one goes to buy collectibles and hunt for sleepers? If so, antiques bazaars and flea markets are open most days of the year. Or to see novelties - like the Fashion weeks, maybe? Is it a place for exhibits/competitions? Then how about State Fairs that run most of a month? Is it a place to meet important people in the field of interest and attend lectures? Some conferences which I attend professionally can run over 10 days, if one counts ancillary/satellite meetings and continuing education courses. Tucson is a juxtaposition of all these elements, plus others which don't spring readily to mind, and it is because of this that it goes on for as long as it does. If one were to break it down into its individual components, each one need not be a 2-week event and only lasts as long as it does because of the overall design. The Tucson gathering also capitalizes on everybody coming together at the same time, even if individually they are there for their own personal reasons and with their own goals in mind.

Comparing other shows to the entirety of the Tucson "show" is challenging. I think it is the enormity of scope which makes it go on for so long. But David is correct, the Quartzsite event lasts for several weeks, and I'm sure there are other "shows" that follow similar formats.

- Tracy

[Gail]

John, I HOPE not. I think it is hard on the familys of the dealers to be away so long. I saw frustration on the part of some of the collectors, torn between the Westward Look show or the Main Show, often they cannot take a week off, or it is too difficult to fly in for both events. And the whole Inn Suites event is going on before either of the two mentioned above.
Many of the dealers I talked to, in the Inn Suites, were tired and missing their spouses and children, their homes. It is a tough living for so many, but to compete they are there for long periods of time.
Yes, the weather is nice and Tucson has a certain flair for great restaurants and fun night life, but surely weeks on end is a little too much for even the hardiest of dealer?

I know this doesn't answer your question John, but wanted to chime in.
The whole Tucson experience is almost overwhelming as you cannot possibly see it all no matter how hard you try!

[Jason]

A little off-topic but I always wondered about the time period that Tuscon runs...if you think about it it has to be a horrible time to have the biggest and best show...do you know what comes in the middle and at the end of january?? The christmas season credit card statements...all those millions and millions of americans who use credit cards to buy christmas gifts get there statements at the end of january...i know of 2 people myself who didn't go this year due to the economy and their credit card bills after buying for christmas..if you think about it the show is held at the exact time bills start piling in from christmas..just always wondered if it maybe affected the amount of money spent or not

[Brooks]

Getting back to John's original question, I have a friend who is a coin dealer. I was explaining to him about shows within our hobby and in particular Tucson and he was telling me about a similar event for the numismatists (coin collectors) that runs a similar time period and is also in the states. I think he might have mentioned a larger city like St. Louis.

[Jesse Fisher]

I have several friends who are into collecting other things such as books, antiques, fine art, etc, and I have never heard anyone describe a show or event related to their interest that rivals Tucson in size or duration. Most are amazed when I try to describe the Tucson "show" to them.

As to the reason why the Tucson show has grown to it's current size and duration, I think there are two main causes. Firstly, unlike other major shows (Munich, Ste. Marie, Denver, and such), there is no single organizer for the Tucson event, so there is no one capable of imposing any overall duration limits.

Secondly, there is a strong desire on the part of the buyers to be the first ones to get access to new material. This leads to the "motivated" shoppers showing up earlier and earlier each year. This, in turn, leads to the "motivated" sellers to open their doors earlier to try and catch the shopper's money before it is spent elsewhere. When we started the Rogerley Mine project 11 years ago, we would always open our doors on the official opening day of Marty Zinn's show. Many dealers and customers had been there for a number of days already, and when we decided to jump the opening of the show by a couple days, our sales jumped accordingly. Unfortunately, I see nothing, other than perhaps the physical and economic stamina of the participants that will stop this behavioral feed-back loop.

As to why the Tucson show is held so closely after the Christmas spending frenzy, I think the answer is simple. The majority of buying at the show is wholesale, and re-sellers need to restock after the holidays. This was probably not the original intention of the TGMS when they started the show long ago, but it has certainly developed that way. There is no other mineral show, to my knowledge, where so much wholesale buying occurs. And then there's the weather. Just think of how miserable it can be in many other places that time of year. It gives many folks a nice break from winter.

Cheers,
Jesse

[Les Presmyk]

I don't know how far afield from mineral, coin and stamp shows we need to go but there are classic and antique car shows that take place in Scottsdale, Arizona that last for 7 to 10 days. What was just one, the Barrett-Jackson, now has at least two concurrent and competing shows. The Arabian Horse Show, also in Scottsdale, runs at least 11 or 12 days. Not quite to the length and size of what happens at Tucson between the middle of January and the middle of February but still more than just a three or four day week-end.

I was one of the first satellite show dealers at the Desert Inn in 1972 when Wayne Thompson and I shared a room there. I think we opened on the Saturday before the main show and shut down by the Saturday of the main show. The Tucson Show was only 3 days long and had 30 mineral dealers.

I have always felt that anything longer than 10 days mainly benefits the show promoters. If everyone agreed to open up on the Thursday or Friday before the main show, then everyone would have an equal chance and most of the customers could deal with that. Jesse's observations about the effect of opening earlier and gaining sales are very valid. But, it is not the collectors who benefit, it is the other dealers who are there to buy and find those good deals so they can resell them later.

[keldjarn]

I think Jess and Les has a very valid point refering to the large scale whole-sale dealing during the Tucson shows and its effect on the duration of the shows. Most other international mineral shows are mainly focusing on dealers selling specimens to collectors, and even if there is some whole-sale dealing (or business-to-business activity) going on during the set-updays at Munich, St. Marie or Denver, the main show-periode focus on dealer to collector sales ( business-to-end-user activity).
Thus the Tucson event is in reality a mix of whole-sale shows and retail-shows including also gems, beads etc. to a much larger extent than most other international mineral shows.
The reason for coming early (as a dealer or buyer) would be to make favourable whole-sale purchases, have the first pick of new finds, or find the "sleepers" as stated by John.
To me as a collector, one of the fascinating things with the Tucson events are the possibility also for ordinary collectors to transect the borders of the value-chain in the mineral trade and also get access to new finds directly from the miners and old collections at the same time as many retail dealers. But there has to be a certain volume of such merchandise to support a long duration of the shows. With less new finds, the importance of coming early is not so great. Modern communications and the internet also results in many dealers or collectors visiting other dealers just before the Tucson shows and highgrading their stocks before the material reaches even the earliest shows in Tucson. I heard many such stories this year in Tucson. Many years ago the preceding show at Quartzite seemed to be a kind of pre-Tucson whole-sale event, but new and exceptional finds do not seem to premier there anymore.
The introduction of the Westward Look show has introduced a whole new dynamic to the Tucson events and may in the long run result in a shorter show period which could give a much stronger total participation at the events. It is interesting to see that even if some dealers opened early this year, the activity was quite low at the opening of the Marty Zinn show at the Inn Suites and important dealers like Jordi Fabre opened only Tuesday, I do not believe it hurt his sales. The Executive Inn which was such a biristling venue 10 years ago, looked more like a morgue. Very few people had visited the mineral section at the Pueblo Inn when I was there early in the shows and there were in general very few pople walking the strip west of I-10 even on the first Sunday of the shows.
I have been visiting the Tucson shows during other business in the USA, sometimes a few days early in the shows, sometimes also later during the TGMS show. As an overseas visitor I should really like to see the shows more compact. It would still be the largest event of its kind on the planet.

[Jesse Fisher]

I can not comment on other dealer's experiences, but we (UKMV) opened our doors at the Inn Suites on the afternoon of Jan. 28 and were literally mobbed by the influx of buyers, almost all dealers buying for resale. We did over one third of our total business for the show in the first three days. My only disappointment was that they didn't take everything, so we could have closed up and avoided another 10 days of hotel bills!

Interestingly, it was the better quality specimens (with, naturally, higher prices) that remained. It seems that maybe price is driving the wholesale market, with quality a secondary concern, at least at the moment. Some of the better pieces sold on later in the show as collectors began arriving in town, taking over from other dealers as the majority of buyers shopping the rooms.

[alfredo]

Jesse (several posts back) gave an excellent explanation of why the show tends to get longer and longer, and why this trend isn't going to stop anytime soon. (Rock Currier says it will stop when the early buying reaches the beginning of January, as no one will want to interrupt their year-end festivities to go to Tucson!)

Nevertheless, for those buyers like John White who fear they will miss all the bargains if they don't come early, I'd like to offer the following reassurance: What John says about early birds may well be true for weekend club shows, but Tucson is a different type of phenomenon altogether. During the 3 weeks of Tucson, many dealers are frequently receiving new material delivered during the show. (Just ask the harried hotel receptionists struggling with heavy DHL and FedEx packages.) I got two heavy boxes from Bolivia delivered to my hotel room during the show, plus two collections consigned to me by collectors arriving late. And some dealers come with a month's worth of sales material and don't have space in the room to unpack it all at once, so they're unpacking new stuff throughout the show. So there are always people with new material to look at, regardless of when you show up in Tucson.

[Jason]

Jesse your post makes perfect sense now..expecially after the holidays stock is looking low so wholesale buyers are wanting to re-up..makes sense now....I just always wondered..my sister and her family always seem to have a hard time around this time of year..they rack up those credit card bills from the holidays..good thing i don't own a credit card...LOL

[Jesse Fisher]

Credit cards are insidious things. They make it easier to purchase stuff, but in the end, I really think they only exist in order to enrich the bonus funds for already over-paid bank executives. How about a bonus for an over-worked, under-paid mine owner? Good think I'm not holding my breath on that one!

[Jason]

Nailed that one jesse..my folks always taught me that credit cards were to only br used for travel and emergencies..i figured if you don't already have the money then what makes you think you will have it later on...hmmm..but I must say those tsumeb dioptase don't come up very often..could you consider than an "emergency" purchase...lol