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Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection
  
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Joan Massagué




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PostPosted: Nov 25, 2010 20:55    Post subject: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Hi,
I recently added to my collection a pyrargyrite from the Samson mine, St. Andreasberg, Germany, that was collected in 1864. The specimen came with old collection labels. The oldest label has no collection name, but a subsequent label is from a Wüster collection. I am trying to gather more information about this collection, and I have searched the web so far to no avail. Could anyone provide information about Wüster and his/her collection?
Thank you in advance for any help!



Wuster label.jpg
 Description:
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Wuster label.jpg



245-Pyrargyrite.Andreasberg3.jpg
 Description:
Pyrargyrite crystals to 1.3 cm on microcrystalline calcite matrix. Specimen: 6.6 x 7.4 x 2.4 cm
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245-Pyrargyrite.Andreasberg3.jpg


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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Nov 26, 2010 17:47    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Hi Joan, I believe has been solved in the Spanish Forum -> https://www.foro-minerales.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50234#50234

Jordi

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Montanpark




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PostPosted: Nov 26, 2010 18:08    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Hi Jordi and all,
My Spanish is really bad so I do not get all what was written, but after checking the links in the Spanish forum, I am not sure that all is solved ;)

The label at MinRec is a label of the museum which has been stamped later as having been acquired from the Wüster collection. I tried to find some info on Wüster today, but no luck until now. I have my colleagues on this who are collecting labels so maybe i can provide some news later.

Cheers
Roger
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Jordi Fabre
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PostPosted: Nov 26, 2010 18:26    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Yes, the label is more modern than the other label, but if Joan contacts the Museum, I'm sure they could supply the details of the collector. This is what is written in the Spanish side.

Sorry for all anglophone members, but Joan speaks Spanish quite well, he will understand ;-)
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Montanpark




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PostPosted: Nov 26, 2010 18:37    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

I should improve my Spanish of course Jordi ;)

Nevertheless, I will try to get some info on Wüster,
Cheers,
Roger
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Joan Massagué




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PostPosted: Nov 26, 2010 18:37    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Montanpark, Jordi,
Thank you for taking an interest in this. I agree that the issue is not yet solved, but there are some encouraging clues. I separately consulted with Wendell Wilson about a Wüster specimen label that is listed in the Min. Rec. Label Archive. Wendell kindly replied saying that Wüster was a collector in Berlin in the 1920s or later (the label is dated 1928), and his collection was quite large (the label is No. 5299). This is all that Wendell knows about Wüster, though. I hope this will trigger more clues.
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Montanpark




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PostPosted: Nov 26, 2010 18:43    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Joan,
By the way .. that is a GREAT specimen ... I wish I had it in my collection ;-)
I was lucky today too - I got a large Manganite from Ilfeld, Harz that has been on the top of my wanted list.

Cheers,
Roger
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Montanpark




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PostPosted: Nov 26, 2010 18:59    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Joan,
I just checked your Wüster label again .. the number on it is 1919/ B 5709. So obviously the year of acquisition is 1919 and he just took the old number of the former label as collection number (which is 5709). Thus it may be that his collection wasn´t in the high 5000s specimens, but he decided to "reuse" the old numbers for convenience (and easy attributing). You also find this on old A. A. Damour labels which were hand written with 4 digit numbers and those taken over on Krantz labels later with the same number.

Cheers
Roger
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Joan Massagué




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PostPosted: Nov 26, 2010 19:25    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Roger,

The possibility crossed my mind, but we can't be sure. "1919" could be the year of the acquisition or the specimen number in the Wüster collection. Now, "B" could be the initial of the collection from which the previous label comes. If we can find more about Wüster, and what collections he absorbed, perhaps we will figure out who "B" was too! Exciting.

I'd love to see your new manganite (in a private message if you wish). You will enjoy the extensive article on Ilfeld in the current issue of Min Rec, if you haven't seen it already.
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Montanpark




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PostPosted: Nov 27, 2010 05:41    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Joan Massagué wrote:
Roger,
"1919" could be the year of the acquisition or the specimen number in the Wüster collection. Now, "B" could be the initial of the collection from which the previous label comes.


Joan, of course you are right. The 1919 could surely be Wüsters collection number also instead of the year ... I also suspected "B" to be the initial of the former owner.

I just found this entry at the Northrhine-Westphalian archive which COULD be our man ;-)

https://www.archive.nrw.de/LAV_NRW/jsp/bestand.jsp?archivNr=421&tektId=160
(link normalized by FMF)

Time is right, he was mining engineer, studied at Clausthal just before 1920 etc. ... so I suspect that this could be a trace worth following ...

I will post a picture of the manganite later .. just have a crappy quick shot and will try in daylight this afternoon,

Cheers
Roger

EDIT: just found an ebay auction selling a lot of personal documents of Bergassessor Reinhard Wüster. In the pictures there are some lines written by him very similar to the writing on the label.
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PostPosted: Nov 27, 2010 06:15    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

The "B" could be Dr. Franz Beyschlag, * 5. Oktober 1856 in Karlsruhe; † 23. Juli 1935 in Berlin - professor of Geology in Berlin at the same time Wüster was an assistant there (1915-1916 both are listed). But 1864 then is the find date of the specimen not the acquisition date probably as Beyschlag was only 8 years old then ;-)
Kind of speculative but fun! Maybe it is all wrong, hehe.

Cheers
Roger
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Joan Massagué




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PostPosted: Nov 27, 2010 08:48    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Roger,
Very impressive investigative work. (I work in a field of research that could use people with these skills to move faster!).

Speculative as they may be, your deductions are entirely plausible. I will run through Google Translator the Wüster entry that you found, and see what it says. Even if it doesn't say anything about his mineral collecting habits, a mining assessor like Wüster would be in a position to access good specimens. As for the "B" man, your guess is also plausible. Indeed, 1864 was the date that this specimen was found, and not necessarily the date that if was acquired by "B".

So, until someone can tell us better, we have here a tentative line of early owners of this piece.

Just one more favor to ask: would you be able to show an image of the Wüster handwriting that you found on ebay?

Thanks a "B"illion!

Joan
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Joan Massagué




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PostPosted: Nov 27, 2010 18:27    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Hi Roger,

I did find the ebay posting and kept an image of it this morning in my smart phone. I'm glad I did that because I cannot find that posting anymore now! Anyhow, the handwriting of Reinhard Wüster and the handwriting in the Wüster label of my specimen are remarkably similar. This is easy to spot in the p and g letters. I am now convinced that the owner of my specimen was Reinhard Wüster. The link to Franz Beyschlag as the "B" owner seems rather tenuous, though. This one remains in the realm of speculation.

For your interest, the next collection label that I have with this specimen is from Fred Pough. This noted American mineralogist (see the Min Rec biographical archive) did his PhD research under Victor Goldscmidt, in Heidelberg, 1930-1931. So Pough must have had good contacts in German mineral collectors, and may have known Reinhard Wüster and obtained this pyrargyrite specimen from him. Not certain, but at least possible...

Joan



photo.JPG
 Description:
A download of today's eBay posting of documents from Reinhard Wüster with his handwriting on the left. Note the similarities of his p and g with those of the Wüster label that comes with the specimen.
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photo.JPG



3 labels.jpg
 Description:
The label from Fred Pough, iconic American mineralogist and collector, who did his PhD research in Heidelberg under Goldschmidt in 1930-1931.
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3 labels.jpg


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PostPosted: Nov 27, 2010 18:48    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Hi Joan,
I sent you the link to the ebay auction in a private message. Only a few of the photos show actually Wüsters handwriting (few of the last ones), but I agree that it is quite similar but always with a caveat. The entry of the Northrhine-Westphalia archive does not contain any info on his mineral collecting but the curriculum vitae is quite convincing that he was close to mineralogy and geology of ore deposits.

Thanks for the kind words on this "research" .. if I ever happen to look for a new job I will send you a mail ;-) ...

Back to serious .. Dr. Renate Schumacher from Bonn University may be able to clarify the issue .. she is in charge of the Bonn museum collection.

https://www.steinmann.uni-bonn.de/museen/mineralogisches-museum/museumsteam/schuhmacher-renate
(link normalized by FMF)

Manganite will be posted now in my collection thread .. still a bad photo but I like the sample ;-)

Cheers,
Roger
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Joan Massagué




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PostPosted: Dec 02, 2010 07:38    Post subject: Re: Pyrargyrite, St Andreasberg, Wüster collection  

Hi Roger and all,

The result of this investigation is now posted:

https://www.mineralogicalrecord.com/labels.asp?colid=1573
(link normalized by FMF)

Thank you for the help in solving this case!

Joan
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