FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Ray McDougall]

I’m a new reader of Jordi’s excellent forum discussions and a dedicated mineral collector. This discussion thread has touched upon what strike me as fundamental issues of what it means for each of us personally to study and collect minerals today, and about the direction of a collective modern culture in “Mineral World” (I realize how many different types of dedicated mineralogists, collectors, dealers, and disparate subsets of people this term could include, but perhaps I can call it this to encompass what we all have in common).

For what little it may be worth, although it’s hard to disagree with the observations about the trends within Mineral World of commercialism, escalating prices, emphasis on materiality, thoughts of status, conspicuous collectors and dealers, and given specimens being “better” than others, I also strongly share the optimism expressed by contributors to the discussion in this forum. (There is also clearly an additional positive angle with the commercialism: the significant money being invested in Mineral World results in more specimens becoming available - much greater level of field development, such as financially risky commercial collecting ventures by dealers and preservation of specimens in other mining contexts as in China – the whole Mineral World universe certainly benefits from this.)

However, beyond the commercial façade, intellectual curiosity is at the heart of Mineral World and inspires most people who, at whatever age and to whatever degree, become any more than superficially intrigued with minerals. “That’s so cool!” is so often immediately followed by “How can that possibly be natural?” and “So why is that specimen like that – how did that happen?”

We each love, study and collect minerals for our own individual reasons and we are all fascinated by different things, finding the study and collecting of minerals personally fulfilling and rewarding in different ways. I would have thought that it’s our responsibility to ourselves, each other, and the many more who will follow us in Mineral World to determine for ourselves what it is that we love about minerals, why it is that we study/collect, and then to confidently pursue those things for ourselves and share them with others.

No question some commercial trends are prominent and hard to avoid, but we can each choose to work around any commercial developments we personally find troubling (or when our pocketbooks tell us that we won’t be buying any five-figure specimens today (!)). It is obviously possible to assemble excellent and fulfilling mineral collections with confidence and enthusiasm within a budget – certainly challenging these days (and we have likely all had discouraging moments on this front), but then there’s nothing wrong with a challenge.

Despite the prominent/conspicuous dealers and collectors within the commercial trend whose views might be presented as having more legitimacy, authority or “official word” than any others, it’s up to each of us to inform ourselves and form our own opinions – sometimes such views are excellent observations and we may agree, and sometimes we will most certainly not. Fortunately we are not actually required to subscribe to anyone else’s view, be it in a publication or the view of a dealer or another collector (or for that matter, albeit less likely, a curator or academic), that, for example, something is “best”. I personally find it extremely valuable to see and read about specimens considered by others with experience to be important – I agree with some and are grateful for their views, and often, respectfully, I do not agree. Mineral World is a subjective place where intellectual curiosity, fascination and beauty are all personal and in the eyes of the beholder.

I’m with Jordi in that at the heart of it all, and after all the reading and my continuing quest to learn more, what really inspires me to begin with is the beauty of specimens and of course I love the almost incomprehensible natural perfection of a beautiful crystal. Which I admit may make me partly a mineralogical flake, but then it is also exactly what drives me to learn more and read extensively - "how did this unique deposit form?" “why do crystals of this mineral twin at this locality and why this particular morphology?” “did similar events to those that led to the formation of this deposit not occur at other world localities or have they just not yet been discovered?” To me, that is really the next and larger-scale beauty of Mineral World – one can never learn it all, the questions can continue, the curiosity always has another avenue – there is always another challenge and another horizon.

R.

[Jordi Fabre]

Ray,

Is late now in Spain, close midnight. Today was a long day with a lot of troubles and just opening my computer I read your message. It was a gift for my mind, thanks Ray.

Your text remembered me the roots of our common passion. We can discuss about many things and many of them will be really interesting, but on the bottom, on the real bottom, we always have they: the minerals, with its silent perfection.

Jordi

[mmauthner]

I enjoy minerals; they have fascinated me since infancy. I get as thrilled about a 50 cent somethingite, especialy in the field, as I do about some of the "best".
However, when thinking about all the collectors, especially wealthy collectors who are not also dealers, that collect minerals as objects of art without much further regard to the nature of minerals, I feel that there is a place for everyone. "Art objects" is an appropriate analogy in many ways... I wonder how many of the "great" art collectors can actually paint? How many even know enough about painting to remark on technique in a meaningful way?

[Jordi Fabre]

I agree Mark, but the point could be not if some people know so much about mineralogy but if they really want to know...

Jordi


mmauthner wrote:
______________________________________________________________________

> I enjoy minerals; they have fascinated me since infancy. I get as thrilled
> about a 50 cent somethingite, especialy in the field, as I do about some of
> the "best".
> However, when thinking about all the collectors, especially wealthy
> collectors who are not also dealers, that collect minerals as objects of
> art without much further regard to the nature of minerals, I feel that
> there is a place for everyone. "Art objects" is an appropriate
> analogy in many ways... I wonder how many of the "great" art
> collectors can actually paint? How many even know enough about painting to
> remark on technique in a meaningful way?
______________________________________________________________________

[John S. White]

I think that Mark may be very surprised at how much great art collectors know about art, even if they can't paint their fingernails. In my limited experience in that field, those that I know of are very serious about the skills that make one painting more valuable than another and have steeped themselves in everything they can learn about the artists whose works they admire or collect.

One cannot fault mineral collectors who collect trophy specimens without feeling the need to know more about the minerals themselves, but one wishes that something would spark a more intense interest in the intellectual aspects of the objects they collect. Instead of putting irrelevant information like the ownership history of the specimens on their labels, they could put something about the specimens that has some educational content. How nice that would be, but the trend appears to be going in the other direction.

[alfredo]

I am quite a bit more optimistic than John and Patrick about the current degree of interest in real mineralogy among mineral collectors. The population of mineral collectors can be represented by a pyramid: at the top, a tiny population of wealthy collectors who buy "trophy" specimens for several thousands of dollars each, and a somewhat larger population of mineral dealers who specialize in singing and dancing for such buyers. Some of those buyers are keenly interested in minerals, others are content to remain ignorant. Has this changed since the 18th century, when it was mainly the nobility who collected minerals? I doubt it.

At the bottom of the pyramid are the vast masses in the general public who spend a few dollars or a few tens of dollars on a pretty stone for decoration of the windowsill or desk, or perhaps they hope their crystal will cure some disease.

Our personal impressions of the state of mineral collecting, or the public's thirst for mineralogical knowledge, will inevitably be coloured by whatever slice of the collector pyramid we tend to interact with. My own social interactions are mainly with collectors in the middle of the pyramid, those who like to go field collecting, and also buy minerals, perhaps spending several tens of dollars or a few hundred dollars on a specimen. Such collectors are frequently excellent amateur mineralogists, or at least desire to learn, and their collections tend to specialize in minerals of a limited type, chemistry or locality. They commonly spend money on instruments that help the learning process, like a binocular microscope and ultraviolet lights. I don't observe any decline in mineralogical learning among this group.

Perhaps the pessimists among us are spending too much of their time socializing with the tiny minority of economically elite collectors at the top of the pyramid, and not enough with the larger population in the middle classes. (I agree that the masses at the bottom are mineralogically a hopeless cause, but their presence does at least enable large mineral shows like Tucson and Munich to exist - an economic impossibility without them!)

Alfredo

[keldjarn]

Thanks to Alfredo for revitalizing this interesting thread. Having recently returned from Tucson I do also share Alfredo`s optimism. Even if it is the exceptional new finds and expensive showpieces that catch the headlines, it is still amazing how many people who are truely enjoying minerals and mineralogy and not just trophy specimens with multi-digit price tags. Jordi and Alfredo are surely among these enthusiasts who keep the hobby going.
Having visited all Munich shows for 40 years and the Tucson shows since 1991 I feel that there has actually been an increased interest in the diversity of the mineral world. The number of trophy-hunters and high-end specimens has increased, but so has the number of really knowledgable collectors and the availability and quality also of rare and unique specimens judged from other critera than pure aesthetics. I remember during my first years in Tucson in the early 90`ies finding many treasures, overlooked by the ordinary collectors beacuse of their lack of mineralogical knowledge. I remember finding many exceptional specimens of rare beryllium-phosphates from the Tip Top pegmatite in South Dakota and specimens of unusual secondary minerals from the Mammoth mine, Tiger, Arizona. They were not plentiful at that time either, but collectors did not have the knowledge to appreciate their rariry and quality. This has changed dramatically during the last decade especially due to the internet and internet dealers who have broadened the range of "collectible" minerals. Today there is a fierce competition when really unique specimens also of rare species are being offered. This cannot be interpreted as anything else than increased knowledgebased awareness in the collector community and seems to contradict the notion that there is "less" mineralogy in collecting today.
What may be in a decline is the simple fossicking and rock-hunting as a past-time. There are many other temptations and less productive localities open to collecting combined with the general exposure to the very showy specimens may work as a dis-incentive in recruiting new collectors who do not have a basic knowledge and interest in natural science or a very thick wallet. But also in the past only rarely did these hobbyists advance to really knowledgeable and dedicated collectors.
I believe there will always be a strong part of the mineral collector community who really seek broader knowledge through their collecting efforts. What separates a hobby from a profession is what separates a vacation from a business trip. On vacation the core value is the quality of the experience during the travel- not getting there in the most efficient way or maximizing profit from the venture. Thus I believe many of the trophy-hunters with little knowledge of mineralogy will experience far less pleasure from their acquisition of world-class aesthetic specimens than many dedicated and knowledgable collectors with ordinary budgets who are enjoying a wider variety of mineral specimens, the science of mineralogy and the friendly interaction with like-minded people from all over the world in the middle of Alfredos pyramide.

Knut

[John S. White]

How can I disagree with my good friend Alfredo? He does indeed make some very good points and I hope that his optimism is not misplaced. But then, he deals more with serious collectors than just about any other dealer I know so he probably has a much better picture of that portion of the pyramid than I do. I guess I spend too much time hobnobbing with trophy specimen collectors to get a real sense of activity at the other end. However, as far as my personal taste in minerals is concerned I am among those who look for minerals that have something to say; that is, they challenge one's curiosity and/or intellect.

I really think that Alfredo entered the Forum more as an excuse to let us all see the photo of him with the hawk on his head, a story related to me by Rock Currier at Tucson and one which I feel Alfredo now has to share with this Forum.

[parfaitelumiere]

when I began(for the second time)I was 18.
My mother baugh in auctions at Nimes some mineral specimens,but we didn't know what kind of minerals it was,and where it came from.
Some ones were very nice,however I knew nothing about!
A few years after,in fact there was a really good specimen of calcedony and lussatite from mine des rois,a good acicular malachite on dolomite from tsumeb,and a lot of specimens from saint laurent le minier.
What I want to tell,is that beauty is not the only thing about minerals or cristals.
I have baugh a rhodochrosite cristal,from an old collection,I don't know where it comes from,but I will find it!
When I read your answers,I don't really understand what you are talking about.
In France we find lots of "not really good"specimens,these ones are not really beautifull,but really broken,and not really interesting,from mineralogical point of wiew.
Lots of guys are selling ugly pieces,telling that these pieces come from ussel,or chessy or chatel guyon.
It doesn't seeem to be like in USA!

[Pete Modreski]

I want to express my agreement with Alfredo's very good summary and comments on this topic. (This “Very Little Mineralogy…” thread on Jordi's forum, and the “Tucson 2008--Questionable Prices?” topic, are covering similar ground, and many of the comments that have been posted on them relate to both topics.)

I agree that there are still many collectors (and dealers) who are serious and knowledgeable amateurs who are quite interested in studying and learning about minerals, and who contribute much to the advancement of mineralogy as far as description and documentation of mineral occurrences around the world. I myself am one of these people “in the middle of the pyramid”. I am very likely never going to purchase a specimen from any of the dealers who display at the Westward Look in Tucson, but this does not mean that I don’t enjoy, and gain knowledge from, looking at their “exquisite” specimens (though this may also include my expressing wonderment and perhaps some skepticism about the appropriateness of the number of zeroes on some of their price tags). I personally—like many others—can derive a great deal of enjoyment and opportunity for learning about minerals, by purchasing a very moderately-priced specimen, if it possesses that combination of illustrating a mineral’s properties*, paragenetic associations, and aesthetic qualities that make me want to add it to my collection—even though it may be in the $5 to $50 price range, and not the $5K - $50K range. I don’t plan to enter it in any competition, or to use it to impress people, and I am not purchasing it as a financial investment.

[*Like John White’s polished quartz sphere that fractured along a rhombohedral cleavage plane!]

I also belong to one subset of those people in the middle part of the pyramid; those who are mineralogical and geological professionals, who are also interested in minerals and mineral collections, and who make such aspects of mineralogy at least a part of their research programs. There are, happily, still a good many such people at universities, museums, and other institutions, though admittedly they represent a minority of all the geoscience faculty and professionals worldwide.

Pete Modreski, Denver, Colorado

[Gail]

John Said :

One thing that troubles me greatly about the mineral hobby today is that very few collectors appear to have much, if any, intellectual curiosity about minerals. The focus for most collectors appears to be only beauty and perfection, rather than rarity or novelty.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps it would help if we encourage more mineral collectors to join a group, as we did when we got involved. We belong to MAD, the Mineralogical Association of Dallas. We were urged to purchase all issues of Mineralogical Record and Rocks and Minerals as well as other publications, to visit other's collections and ask questions, to go to museums and see what is there and what makes their minerals special. We host dinner guests frequently, we enjoy the company of people from all over the world and we learn about the mining, the difficulties, the scientific background, the crystal habits, the glory of finding wonderful minerals. We learn about cleaning, trimming and preserving minerals when we visit those that perform these tasks.

Jim and I have been collecting for three years, we came into this hobby with a passion which has amazed many people. Why? Because we LOVE minerals, rocks, the people, the beauty, the scientific makeup, the crystal shapes, the self collecting, the discussions and the appreciation for ALL rocks and minerals.

It might surprise you to see many rarities in our collection. And if you ever stop to ask Jim a question about minerals he might surprise you with the chemical makeup, the locality and the provenance of many specimens. I am less inclined as I am married to a walking encyclopedia and have him to ask if I need an answer! Ha! We each have a subscription to Mineralogical Record, so we don't have to fight over who gets hold of it first. We don't hide our minerals away, we live amongst them.
When I host a woman's party they are amazed at the beauty and the way they are shown in our home. It is not a turn off by any means, it is something they see as beautiful. Do I care if they know the scientific background of our minerals...No. Do I care that WE know the scientific background of our minerals...YES.

What may surprise you is that we don't have the same opinion about the lack of mineralogy in mineral collecting today, I beg to differ. At least in our world it is not the case, we associate with collectors who DO know those things.

MAD hosts guest speakers monthly, some amazing things are brought to our attention and we learn more and more all the time. From the crater of Diamonds in Arkansas to the eye to the "Aesthetic" as some examples of our guest speakers subjects, taking in all aspects of collecting. We host group trips to mines for members. We have a group email list where questions are asked and answers are given.

Our lives aren't about "showing off" but about "showing minerals". We won the Desautels competition, we didn't do this to be prideful about what we spent, but to enjoy the fun of this new and exciting world and to share our minerals with others that might wish to see them. Collectors find no better friend than one that will be just as excited about what you collect because they collect them too!

And as a sidenote, after giving the talk on a "Woman's perspective in Mineral Collecting" I have been approached about receiving funds to start a program to entice more women into the field/hobby/business as well as educational material that we can provide to school teachers to bring the joy of minerals and rocks to students.
I have also started a woman's only forum so that women can ask scientific questions without feeling foolish. Many a woman curator sits on that chat/forum and acts as an advisor.

Jim and I are off to the Smithsonian this coming Friday and Saturday. We visit museums as often as we can. In three years I have been to the School of Mines museum three times. The Denver museum, the AMNH, the British Museum, the Houston museum, the Dallas museum, That's more museums that I have visited in a short time than I visited in 20 years prior to taking up this delightful hobby.

Now, for a woman that has been collecting only three years with no prior knowledge of minerals whatsoever, I think it is safe to say I can talk a Xenotime-(Y) with the best of them.

So have hope, gentlemen, there are many collectors that you have never had a chance to talk mineralogy with. Don't assume anything. Sure we know people who like to buy minerals without knowing much about them, so what? They are happy, don't burst their bubble.
Just know that others are out there sharing information, mentoring and slowly bringing future collectors in with the proper knowledge.

We are just lucky that we found this delightful world before being too old to want to do the work involved. I mean it when I say I am passionate about minerals.
With much respect for you all,
Gail

[parfaitelumiere]

Hello!
Do you know that another hobby for me is to grow up bonsai trees.
What I'm looking for is the perfect shape,powerfull roots and trunk ,beautifull branches and delicate small leaves.
I'm never satisfied.
But I know some bonsai enthousiast who are happy to buy a tree in supermarket and to take care of it.
And I'm sure that these people love their trees the same I do!
I think that hapiness is the most important thing.
However I think that knowledge is important too,and if someone can give it,he has to do it.

[John Stolz]

I don't want to sound negetive--after all, this is my 1st post--but I wonder if this thread isn't a bit presumptuous in its implicit assumption that mineral collectors 'should' be interested in mineralogy. Don't get me wrong--I'm definitely in the "you should know what you like" camp. But like what? I am more into the paragenetic side and totally uninterested in the taxonomic side of mineralogy. Do I need to interest myself in new age applications of healing and vitalization?

Long and short is that people are interested for different reasons; there are different kinds of collectors--just as there are those that wonder at the state of the world because of increasing numbers of those who buy specimens at shows instead of hiking 20 miles into the wilderness and digging them up themselves. Or those in the 'knowledge for knowledge sake's' camp, who scratch their heads in wonder at those who feel compelled to collect physical specimens in the areas that float their intellectual boat.

[John S. White]

Since I started the thread I guess it is up to me to respond. I don't think it is presumptious at all to express regret over the fact that relatively few mineral collectors appear to feel the need to learn more about the objects that they collect. I certainly do not expect all collectors to be intellectually challenged by the minerals they collect, but I am stunned at how few appear to be. It is hard for me to understand how anyone can have a cabinet full of these wonderful objects without feeling compelled to at least take a course in elementary mineralogy, just as it has always puzzled me that so many people can drive around this country (USA) seeing amazing geological features in roadcuts, etc., and not feel compelled to learn something how that came to be and what they represent. In other words, taking an elementary geology course or reading a good textbook on geology.

I have absolutely nothing against purchasing mineral specimens, I do it myself. But the ones that I purchase more often than not present some feature that I find curious. I love the ones that make you scratch your head and say to yourself - how did that happen? Much like Tracy's faden quartz:

https://www.fabreminerals.com/forum/Message-Board/viewtopic.php?p=1223#1223

Even bonsai collectors have to learn the basics of caring for these plants or they will not last very long. Minerals, at least, do not require care and feeding.

[Gail]

I am going to express JOY at all those that we have met who are failry novice in their collecting who DO study the mineralogy. I was at the Dallas show yesterday, many times we sat and joined in on conversations and it was like sitting in classrooms, novice collectors were learning from the masters. I saw first time collectors learning about the reason for a gwindel growth, or a reason for phantoms in fluorites.
It may not be a school classroom, but it is still a course in elementary mineralogy.
I have always seen the more positive of things in life and look, and find, reasons to have a sense of well being in the mineral world as well.
Now back to the Dallas show, whew....so many minerals, so little time!

( PS, we had Dave Wilber as a houseguest on Friday night....we went to bed at three a.m. because his stories were just wonderful! Isn't all of what we listen to a form of education in the guise of a lecture in this case anyhow?)

John, I have heard many wonderful stories about you this weekend, we had over 150 people in our home this weekend and your name came up quite a bit. You should be commended on your fabulous reputation. In your own way you have taught much to others simply by being open about your concepts and thoughts on all things mineral.