FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Tony H Gill]

HI Lluís

Just got your thread, sorry could you clarify, do you think this is Brasilian or from Russia?

Thanks

Tony

[GneissWare]

OOps! I spelled Luis' last name incorrectly.

His website is:
https://www.luizmenezes.com.br/index_english.htm
(link normalized by Jordi)

You could try contacting him, and ask if you could send him a photo.

[lluis]

Good afternoon, Tony/List

I fear I am one of the heretic ones, as Knut.
I though it was from Brasil, possibly/likely Virgem da Lapa.
Then I would think that your label is right.
The Mursinska ones I have seen/I own tend to be less gemmy.

So.....

As just a comment, a russian friend send me a post about and old collection of platinoids. long time ago....The abstract is: from the collection, the majority (say 90%) were red arrows pointing nothing. 8% were arrows pointing to something that *is not* what is said. The rest was correct...... :-(

I suppose that I have a perverse sense of humour, but I like to collect "mistakes" (well recorded,of course)
At the end, we are human, and to err is human...That reminds me our condition :-)

With best wishes

Lluís

[Tony H Gill]

Thanks Lluís, so this leaves me in a bit of a quandry although the majority say its from the Urals - is there any other means to be certain? Do you have any pictures that are certainly from Brazil that are the same? Is there some analytical/spectroscopic test or out there?

Regards

Tony

[alfredo]

My 2 cents worth: A mineral collection needs accurate locality data - A few dubious attributions can devalue other peoples' trust in the whole collection, and therefore diminish its overall value. So, given the sad fact that any decision about this very nice piece will be little more than a guess, I'd recommend selling it for cutting rough and then looking for a new better documented crystal for the collection. ;-((

[Tony H Gill]

Another picture of the specimen in quesiton

[John S. White]

Not sure that I am in agreement with my friend Alfredo, I would never have such a fine crystal cut. Just the same, I feel that it would be a serious mistake to conclude that any of us are correct and, as a result, label the piece as being either from Brazil or Russia. Any label for this specimen should clearly reflect its questionable provenance.

With regard to the comments of Ilius, there is a big difference bewteen a specimen being incorrectly identified and having its locality misattributed. In the former case one can always have the mineral identified with certainty, but when localities are confused there is seldom anything one can do to resolve the uncertainty absolutely, unless the appearance of the mineral or minerals is so distinctive that all would agree on the locality.

By the way, in my opinion dealers who intentionally misrepresent localities are the lowest form of life and at least some of them would be publicly denounced if it were not for the fear of litigation.

[Tony H Gill]

Hi John (all)

Personally I agree with you, I have updated the details for the specimen in mindat in the description field to clarify that the locailty is being possibly from Brazil or Russia (the same goes for the associated label) - hopefully time will lead to the true locality, a little frustrating because I dont really care either way, I just want a single (accurate) point for reference. I appreciate everyones feedback.

Many Thanks

Tony

[lluis]

Dear Mr. White/Alfredo/Knut/....List

I agree with Mr. Sampson-White: the piece is too nice to be cut.
For locality, if label states Virgem da Lapa, I will stay as Virgem da Lapa.
I have not my Bideaux handy (two houses means that you have always the book you need in the other :-( ), but perhaps there is there some analitycal difference recorded.
Other is if any listmember has the Lapis special about Topasses (I collect the english version. In german is published, but do not remember if in english; I will check with Bideaux). Perhaps there is any signifiant difference between.

I will try to ask a friend gemologue if there are any recorded inclusion type that permoits to diferentiate both localities....

Agreed also with errors in localities and in attribution.

In the case of my pyrope, the localty given is not a big deal : California, USA (well, more precise than USA, but not too much....Just locality lost...)
May I ask any of the wiser members if any idea could be given to me?

And agreed that the ones that sell specimens missrepresenting the locality for the sake of more benefit are lowlifes!
And no need to be publically denounced.
Truth is like dust: it enters everyplace...
Soon or later people knows them, and his business would come to an end....

With best wishes

Lluís

[John S. White]

This thread may have gone on long enough, but I can't resist adding a comment to those of Lluis.

I doubt that there are many published analyses of topaz, and I also suspect that even if there were, we would find very little variation in the composition of crystals from different localities, probably not enough to be able to identify the probable source on the basis of composition. Inclusions are a different story and it may be that one can find distinctive inclusions in topazes from certain localities, but I am skeptical, except for those from San Luis Potosi which often contain rutile inclusions, but these are found in rhyolites, not pegmatites.

[Tony H Gill]

Hi All

I thought I had better share this, I realise the thread has probably gone on long enough now, and it probably sounds like I am clutching at straws but as I focus on collecting topaz, I may have a valid point - Ithese pics probably speak louder than words - so I can't resist posting a final thought regarding my topaz in question.

I have recently looked at it extremely closely alongside two other specimens (incl. Jims which is now in my collection). The one that is in question (Brazil/Rusia) has a matt/pitted pinacoid like the others the other two - I didn't mention this before.

Something that I spotted today was a little more suprising, when you hold all three to the light and look down the pinacoid ALL three have a white core, with two darker 'columns' of blue (see attached pic) running parallel to one another down one side of the crystal.

When the crystals are viewed from the side they appear pale blue and you cant see any colour boundaries. When comparing the one from Mimoso the blue is in distinct horizontal layers when viewed from the side.... this is not seen in the other three specimens....

[Tony H Gill]

Top view

[Jordi Fabre]

Virgem da Lapa is the right name.
Virgem = virgin on Portuguese language, so Virgem da Lapa = Virgin from Lapa, with Lapa as a geographical name.

Jordi