FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[joan abella creus]

Dear Sirs,

Can they find a summary in English of the article " Silver antropogénica? " Elaborated by the Gentleman Peter Seroka in;

https://www.mindat.org/mesg-55-107525.html
(link normalized by Jordi)

a greeting,

[chris]

Hi Joan,

Thanks for your article and to Peter fro the translation in English. One time I saw such a specimen for sale (Imiter I mean). I'm not able to tell if it was a "real" specimen or a "man made" but the overall specimen looked so good it rang a bell.

As you wrote in your article, the acanthite matrix wasn't lustrous and there seemed to be some iron oxyde too.

Interesting article and with good pictures too.

Christophe

[Jordi Fabre]

We recently asked the University of Barcelona to carry out a comparative analysis between one of the presumed anthropomorphic silvers from Imiter and a classic silver specimen from Himmelsfürst, Germany. The results are extraordinarily interesting and informative.

Jordi

[str4hler]

very interesting !
thanks...
I will print this and take it to Morocco next time :-)

[chris]

Hello Jordi,

Thanks for the information.

Christophe

[parfaitelumiere]

Interesting, thanks for the information.
My question is: are there some visible crystals on these artificial silver wires?
Are there proustite or acanthite crystals, or quartz on these fakes?
Why I ask this, is because I have a specimen from Imiter, and it seems to be some acanthite and other crystals with silver, and the silver wires are not bright.

[chris]

Hello,

I won't answer you for quartz & proustite, but regarding acanthite the answer is definitely yes as acanthite is a silver sulfide. As fake silver wires are grown from acanthite you'll always find acanthite as matrix.

Regarding the luster of the silver wires, it will mainly depend on when the specimen was collected. If you have silver cutlery at home you probably noticed they tend to lose their luster throughout time. It is the same with silver wires.

I recommend you to have a look at the pictures taken by Joan Abella Creus and available on his blog. You can easily see the iron oxide alterations on fakes due to the acanthite heating producing artificial silver wires. I'm not sure, but somebody did an English translation in Mindat if I remember well.

Christophe

[blackink]

I saw the silvers in the bottom of this page http : // www . irocks . com/Tucson2_Minerals_2010.html?page=2 and I'm shocked.
What was said here in this thread is uncertain?

[Jesse Fisher]

The old saying goes that the only things that are certain in life are death and taxes. One thing we can be fairly sure of is that where there is money to be made, fraud and deception are likely to follow. It is well known and well documented with other high-value collectibles such as the fine art and antiques trades.

It has been shown that wire silvers can be grown in the laboratory. Does this mean that those on the market have been? The subject has undergone lengthy discussions, both here and on Mindat, and no real consensus seems to have emerged as how to tell natural from man-made. I know of one scientist/collector who did a fair amount of analytical work on the wire silvers that were reportedly from Himmelfirst, back when that controversy was raging. He told me that he could not get his data published because the editor of the journal he offered it to was afraid of stepping into the controversy. This is unfortunate, as we now seemingly find ourselves dealing with the same issue.

In the end, if we want to collect minerals, we pay our money and take our chances. Having a good education about these things helps, but will never be a guarantee that we won't become a victim of fraud. Too many emotions are tied up with the acquisition of these things, and this often clouds judgment. The wire silvers may be natural, or they may be man-made. If one purchases a specimen thinking it is natural and later finds out that it is not, can one take the loss? If yes, then perhaps best not to worry about it too much. If not, perhaps best to collect minerals that don't have this question hanging over them.

Jesse

[Peter]

Thanks Jordi for the analyses!
I myself certainly trust my own senses when seeing new specimens, no matter from where, what species... but it is certain that there are people whose minds are always thinking of how to make "quick money" no matter how.
People fake anything from parking tickets to pieces of art.
As long as WE LET THEM, there will always be people making fake minerals and fossils, coloring, irradiating, heating, gluing different specimens together, making replicas (fossils) or sticking pieces together from different fossils to create one sellable one, or the same with minerals. I would say there is no limit to imagination how people come up with various fakes etc. Now, luckily, most minerals we do see at mineral shows are certainly legitimate, but I am certainly NOT SO WEALTHY that I would throw my money away on anything which I was not certain it is natural, unless I want an example of a fake etc.

[str4hler]

That's why I like it best to travel there and find the minerals myself.
When I dig them out and hold them up in the sun, then I know for sure it's real ;)

Cheers! Frank

[Peter]

I completely agree

[alfredo]

I have to disagree with Chris that iron oxide films on a specimen prove anything about whether silver wires are natural or fakes, as iron oxide films are easily added to specimens, and easily removed. It remains extraordinarily difficult or impossible to prove whether a silver wire is natural or not. I've seen silver wires with pyrargyrite or proustite druze growing on them, and I presume those to be natural, as I can't think of any easy way to duplicate that artificially, but without younger minerals (not including acanthite, which forms very easily on silver wires anyway) it is difficult. I'd encourage anyone collecting silver wires to photograph them in situ before removal from the mine.

Nevertheless, after all that, my gut feeling (no proof) is that the vast majority of silver wire specimens on the market are natural, not faked. With the exception of well-documented historic Kongsberg pieces, deservedly precious, and perhaps a few other old european localities, silver wires are not exactly a rare mineral; they are surprisingly abundant in nature and not too expensive, so I don't think too many dealers would go to a lot of trouble to fake them.