FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[bob kerr]

john - very interesting input. it seems to me that gem world has been the main source for much of these specimens - and possibly much of the confusion and suspicion also.

this past tucson show, i also had a lengthily discussion with the gem world people who have a large tent near the days inn and boatner's. mr ed link also swore up and down that the heliodors were authentic BUT he also readilly admitted that they radioactively treat natural heliodor (which is too light yellow for the jewlery market) to make it a deeper yellow. he said this is only done for the cutting rough.

he showed me a plastic bag of "natural" cut heliodor and also the irradiated stuff - i took a photo which is attached - "natural" is on the right, irradiated on the left.

he also said that the cost of the irradiation services are quite high (many dollars per gram) and if they were to be irradiating matrix pieces the cost would simply be prohibitive.

so, although none of this is conclusive (one still has to wonder if the Tajik's or someone else irradiated the stuff before they were sold to gem world - and then gem world irradiated them more), your new "aqua in association with heliodor" as well as the "heliodor in association with white quartz" pieces that both you and i have posted are very difficult to explain.

bob

[bob kerr]

jolyon - some of my thoughts are embedded in your post.

bob

[John S. White]

Bob:

I welcome your very appropriate responses to Jolyon Ralph. I find his reluctance to entertain the possibility that these heliodors are as the sellers claim troubling. I am not sure who his "regional experts" are, I want to examine their credentials.

And, as you say, the habit of these crystals is not only unlike beryls from Brazil, which have never been found in such abundance in my experience, the habit is also quite distinctive and markedly different from the habit of most Pakistan beryl.

[Jolyon Ralph]

There are two different claims being made about these crystals that need examining.

1. They are from Tadjikistan.

2. They are natural heliodor

The 1st part has been discussed many times, with various stories being told about their so-called origin and even a mythical russian-sounding name being assigned to the locality. None of this has held up to scrutiny, and as I said before, talk to ANY mineralogist from the former Soviet Union and they'll tell you the same they've told me. Dmitriy Belakovsky documented this very well, see his article in the Lapis English Beryl monograph. These were born in fraud in the mid 1990s. It would be possible, but stretching credulity, that a GENUINE heliodor source has now been found in the area.

The second part is more interesting, because clearly many of the crystals sold from original finds were either Pakistani or Ping Wu chinese beryls that had been crudely treated to turn yellow. Some crystals were different, and that raised the possibility that a small number of genuine crystals was being diluted by a larger number of fakes. Is the specimen you included genuine? Maybe. I don't know much about natural heliodor sources, it certainly looks different to the stuff previously being sold from Tadjikistan.

All I am saying is that if statement A "Specimen is not treated" is true, it does not automatically mean statement B "Specimen is from Tadjikistan" is also true.

Also, you can't guarantee that the specimen is NOT treated just because another specimen shows darker quartz after treatment. A lot of research would be needed to prove either way.

Look forward to chatting to you about this and more at Tucson!

[John Betts]

I think the biggest smoking gun regarding these heliodors is that the partner in the firm selling them in is a Pakistani and one of the largest exporters of aquamarine from Pakistan.

[bob kerr]

[Mike Wood]

Well then, John's photo of the yellow heliodor on one side and blue aquamarine on the back side of the same specimen is very interesting. It reminded me of something I have observed in the field.
About 18 years ago I was hunting for minerals in the Cairngorm Mountains in Scotland, and I found a small pocket containing gemmy yellow-green beryl crystals; some were nearly 'pure' yellow and measured up to say 1cm x 3cm. In fact I had two stones cut, and very nice they were too.
This year I went to the same spot and found the same pocket had been enlarged somewhat by others, but nevertheless with a bit of work managed to find some more beryl crystals. Again these were of similar dimensions to those found previously, and still gemmy, but they were a pale green colour, with very little yellowness.
So my observations are that the first crystals I found (virtually at the surface) were yellow to yellow-green; and the crystals I found later (below the rock surface) were green.
My theory is that green beryl can turn yellow if exposed to fresh air / UV radiation. Smoky quartz turns paler in colour if exposed to sunlight.

John's picture shows rather pale smoky quartz with the heliodor. Maybe the specimen came from surface pegmatites very high up in the mountains of Tadjikistan, where no doubt the UV is pretty strong. If green beryl can turn yellow naturally, I suppose blue beryl could turn yellow in the same way.
Just a theory. Could be UV that's causing the phenonomen.

[John S. White]

I disagree strongly with Jolyon's claim that the crystals seen some 15 or so years ago are from Pakistan or China. I repeat, the great majority of them have the same habit and that habit is very different from Parkistani beryl or any that I have seen from China.

Maybe Russian geologists climbed all over those 24,000 feet high mountains which extend across Tajikistan, somehow I doubt it. Additionly, Dmitri's short not did not "prove" anything. He did not identify the true source and he did not identify the treatment or the treaters, if they have actually been treated.

[Riccardo Modanesi]

Hi to everybody!
As a gemmologist I can say as follows: in our analysis issue document we have to disclose any kind of artificial enhancement the stone we see was submitted to. Then the CIBJO has some rules we have to join with for disclosing the artificial enhancement we see in a stone. For example, almost all emeralds are submitted to oil and/or Opticon treatment, we have to disclose it, thus specifying almost all of the stones this kind are submitted to it. If you visit the site of CIBJO (for sure there is a section in English as well), you can find the guidelines a gemmologist has to follow.
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.

[John S. White]

Don't know where the quote from Jolyon Ralph came from, but I never ever said that such material "needs to be treated as genuine until it is proven to be fake." I am open to the possibility that these crystals are not from Tajikistan and that the color is the product of treatment, but where, after 15 or so years, is the proof? One would think that after so long a period of time the facts would have been discovered, especially since there are so many people so certain that these heliodors are not what they are supposed to be. Please do not misquote me.

[bob kerr]

[lluis]

Dear all

Late, finding old mails....

For the so called heliodors from Tadjikistan.
Well, I have one of such, a piece in matrix. So, I have more to loose than to win, but as I have said before, quoting other persons

-I am sorry, Mr. White, but I agree with Mr. Betts. My eyes saw the ones in market as equal to China or Pakistan. I placed some examples before in group.

-Well, people ask for proof of treatment. I have heard that at least a person said that he saw place where they were treated, I have also heard that a dealer bragged about treating them. I have not seen any place attributable to Tadjikistan as source.
All in all, like the sunstone from Tibet before, later from Mongolia.
An article also placed in group.

-For the aqua and heliodor in piece: well, nice.
Just I remember that heliodores were produced by *radiation* in nature.
So..... Glued or just the beryls just react in different way.
First stock of "heliodors" were mixed with aquas (anyone could check the MR? would be somehow late....." If late possibility, well, why wonder?

I would like to see *the place* Not the name, but the place....
And not a place like the second report for "mongolian" sunstone, at 3000 Meters and with a tree....Came on, no?.... :-)

In the meantime. any place found?

Just curious...

With best wishes

Lluís

[John S. White]

Well the facts are that these heliodors do have a common and very distinct habit, very different from beryl from other localites. It is all well and good to report that someone "saw the place where they were treated," but where is that place? If this person saw it, why does he not identify it, why does he not tell us where it is so that we can see it for ourselves? Such second hand comments are totally worthless. You can believe what you like, my point is simply that the source and the treaters, if they exist, should now be comon knowledge and this is not the case. The fact that it is not makes all claims, pro or con, empty. I am not arguing that the color is natural or the locality is actually Tajikistan, I do not know. However, those who question both of these claims have been amazingly unable to provide any evidence in support of their positions. Until they do, comments like those from Iluis contribute nothing to the discussion.

Since you mention John Betts I should point out that all Betts said was that one of the partners in the firm selling these heliodors is an exporter of Pakistani aquas. Is he suggesting that because this dealer exports Pakistani beryls, it is impossible for him to handle beryls from another country, one that happens to border on Pakistan? A very weak argument indeed.

[lluis]

Dear Mr. White

Well, maybe my comments are not util, not serve for nothing, in your point of view and in the point of view of others, of course,
But your comments are not exactly a proof of existence of such beryls.
You say " I am not arguing that the color is natural or the locality is actually Tajikistan, I do not know".
Well, I think to read that you say other.

For those beryls: there are two actually different types. One that look like chinese goshenites/pale aquas and the other, more common, Pakistani/afghani aquas.

It is like the Mongolian/tibetan sunstones: you can beleive what you want, but dealer in USA sunstones placed a long article showing how they have been done, and placing evidences that the mine at 3000 meters high with a tree at side is, as tree shows, impossible.

So, you ask for proofs they were treated.

I simply ask for a locality that *exists*. Zelatoya Vada is a bad transliteration from russian , it is not in Tadjikistan not in any place related to it. So, still a nonexistent place....
Well, maybe stubborn, but a thing from an nonexistent locality means that is manipulated, not exactly completely natural, in my mindset. Like the London Blue Topazes. No one will say that those are natural. Are treated all people knows.

With best wishes

Lluís

[John S. White]

I can see that I am wasting my time here. The point that there are two distinct types of so-called heliodors was made a very long time ago in this Forum. The fact that the source of the Asian sunstones was very quickly discovered and verified while the source of the "Tajikistan" heliodors and the identify of the treater have not been discovered and verified after some 15 or so years only extends the mystery. I hope I can resist responding again.