FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Carles Millan]

Hi!

I'm not a native English speaker, so I start this topic only for informative purposes. Just to learn.

I wonder why the most common species containing calcium is named calcite and the simpler mineral with magnesium is known as magnesite, but the same rule does not apply to barium: the barium sulphate is the baryte, with Y.

Does anyone know the reason for breaking such rule? A rule that is not met by everybody...

[alfredo]

Carles, if you look for logic in english spelling, you will become a very frustrated man! Better buy some aspirin. If you prefer logical languages, I recommend Esperanto.

By the way, in american english it is spelled "Baryte", british english is "baryte". Mindat website uses "baryte" because it's based in England.

There are other differences between british and american mineral spellings too, for example aluminium and aluminum...

Saludos,
Alfredo

[John S. White]

I would add siderite and chalybite. In spite of this, the IMA does state a preference, the English notwithstanding.

[Peter Megaw]

George Bernard Shaw said it well. The British and the Americans are "two people separated by a common language"

BTW, I thought it was barytes (like pyrites)?

[alfredo]

This brings me to a related question: Doesn't the IMA only specify official names for minerals in english? When they approve a new species, I never hear of any official pronouncement on what the chinese name will be, only the "english" name. Therefore. the IMA should specify, when they approve a new name, whether the approbation applies to the British or the American version (or rather, the authors should specify that on submission of the name proposal). Then our colleagues on the other side of the Atlantic could decide what the spelling in their own dialect of english is going to be, because surely they have as many linguistic rights in this respect as Chinese, Catalan or Swahili speakers do?
;-))

[Peter Megaw]

Who then writes the pronunciation guide?

[Carles Millan]

Hi Alfredo!

You're right. Languages don't have any logic, Esperanto being an exception since it was created in a 'laboratory'. English does not, of course. Neither does Catalan (my own native language).

You're right too: Mindat is based in England, as everybody knows. But Wikipedia also spells "baryte", with Y. Where is Wikipedia based? Everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

But I finally found in my small library the "Fleischer's Glossary of Mineral Species 2004". It spells "Baryte", with I.

What should we do then?

[keldjarn]

Carles,
you are changing the question from why there is a difference between the English and American way of spelling baryite/Baryte to what should we do about it ?
As another non-native user of English the answer is simple. My main responsibility lies with the correct use of mineral names and other technical and scientific words in my own language (Norwegian). I have no problems living with differences between the American and English way of spelling words -i.e. color and colour - or baryte and Baryte.
With the angloamericanisation of most other languages it is much more important to ensure that proper words are found and used correctly for minerals and mineralogical terms also in Catalan or Norwegian.
Knut

[Montanpark]

Morning all,
now .. i have no problem with baryte ;-) as i write it Baryt - german spelling, hehe. But if you look at the origin of the word, from the greek βαρύς (barýs) the spelling with "y" is- at least to me - the logical one and "Baryte" feels like a malapropism to me although it is "official" AE spelling.

just 2 cents
cheers
Roger

[chris]

Hi folks,

In France (part of the language is based on old greek) we use baryte. So baryte is just fine, even if I sometimes struggle to remember which spelling is the English one and which one is the American :-)

So tell me which way you spell baryte and I'll tell you which is your nationality ;-)

Christophe

[Carles Millan]

Hi!

Should we then consider that the pair 'Baryte/baryte' falls in the same category as the other pairs like 'color/colour', 'organize/organise' and so on? Is it just a matter of double American/British orthography?

If so, I think we can ignore the recommendations of the IMA and write 'Baryte'. But not the rules that Mindat enforces to those who publish pictures there, since you are not free to write the name of the species. And probably we cannot amend the English Wikipedia, who also imposes 'baryte'.

Many thanks to all for having helped.

[alfredo]

Carles, One other factor to consider is that most languages have an official body to decide on correct spelling/grammer/usage, like the Academia Real del Idioma for spanish, Monbusho for japanese, etc. But english is a linguistic anarchy; there is no body that has the authority to decide on correct usage. Long live linguistic anarchy?
Saludos,
Alfredo

[Carles Millan]

Hi Alfredo!

The English anarchy has advantages and disadvantages at the same time.

But one thing is the regular or plain words that people use on a daily basis, and quite another the scientific names. Think also in the species names of the animals and plants. It seems reasonable that an organization (like IMA with minerals) regulate such names.

English speakers can choose between 'color' and 'colour', according to their preferences or the country where they live, but I also think they are not to be allowed to choose between 'Baryte' and 'baryte'. It is not their business. A 'tyrannosaurus rex' is a 'tyrannosaurus rex' everywhere. Neither the Americans nor the English should be able to change that name. Not a single letter.

[alfredo]

Cerles, Tyrranosaurus rex is latin, not english. In english the biological names are just as chaotic as the mineral names! For example "buffalo" in America, "bison" in Britain, where a buffalo is a completely different animal...

[alfredo]

Sorry Carles, I mispelled your name in my last post (accidentally; not an attempt to illustrate spelling anarchy!). But when I looked for the "edit" button to correct it, I find my edit button has disappeared. Why have we lost the ability to edit our own posts?