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A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
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Bill E




Joined: 27 May 2018
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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 10:30    Post subject: Need advice on next step.  

Hello,
I hope this is an appropriate post; I do not want to find it shuffled off somewhere else.
I have found something a bit unusual, that being some relatively large samples of raw natural moissanite. They range in size from smallest to; Approx. L: 7.5 mm / H: 6.15 mm / W: 7.5 mm. The larger at; Approx. L: 8.0 mm H: 7.0 mm W: 7.0 mm.
Sample testing has been completed by the University of Idaho Geology Dept. Verified to be natural moissanite.
My primary question is what to do next with these? Suggestions welcome.
Bill E



Smaller.jpg
 Mineral: Sic
 Locality:
Oregon, USA
 Dimensions: L: 7.5 mm / H: 6.15 mm / W: 7.5 mm.
 Description:
 Viewed:  3204 Time(s)

Smaller.jpg



Larger.jpg
 Mineral: SIC
 Dimensions: 8.0 mm H: 7.0 mm W: 7.0 mm.
 Description:
 Viewed:  3206 Time(s)

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Peter Lemkin




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 11:30    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

I'm no expert, but if they ARE REALLY natural, they are very large for that species! In what environment were they found? What led whoever 'tested' them to state they were natural?
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Bob Harman




Joined: 06 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 11:57    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

Your photo looks like a form of SILICON CARBIDE (SiC). This is also called carborundum. It can occur naturally but is extremely rare, also being called natural moissanite as you mention.

I very strongly suspect that your example is man made.

As to what to do: Label it and keep it as a nick-knack.
Label it and try to sell it for a few bucks.
Label it and make it an initial example of a rock collection.
Etc Etc

All the while remembering that it is almost certainly man made . BOB
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lluis




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 11:59    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

Dear Bill,
It is carborundum, man-made silicon carbide, that is called moissanite, if it is natural.
University find the composition, just erred in provenance...

With best wishes,
Lluís
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Bob Harman




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 12:04    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

Why did I think it man created rather than natural???

Because, not only is the natural stuff very rare, but if natural other advanced mineral collectors would have previously found and collected similar examples from the site wherever you found it. BOB
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Peter Lemkin




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 12:18    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

As you can see....few to none so far are inclined to believe these are natural, without a lot more proof.

Occurrence: A rare mineral: formed in an iron meteorite; as inclusions in diamond; in
diamondiferous kimberlites and lamproites, and in eclogite; in volcanic breccias and rhyolite; in
alluvium.
Association: Iron, diamond (Canyon Diablo); quartz, diamond (Fuxian, China); garnet,
clinopyroxene, coesite, quartz, rutile, graphite, pyrrhotite, cobaltian pyrite (Udachnaya kimberlite,
Russia).
Distribution: In the Canyon Diablo meteorite. From the Sevan-Amasii ophiolite, Dzoraget
River, Armenia. Around Metaxades, Greece. In China, from near Fuxian, Liaoning Province, and
in the Hong district, Tibet. From the Udachnaya, Mir, and Aikhal diamond mines, and elsewhere
in Sakha, Russia. In the Argyle diamond mine, Kimberley district, Western Australia.

[I believe that is the nearly complete list of locations thus far.....] Rare as rare can be!
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Bill E




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 12:33    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

Bob,
It's a natural response; human-made is predominate when looked at in most references. I understand the skepticism I expected it. It is natural, verified by four minor testing sources then properly tested and verified at the University of Idaho. I have the test results in hand. However, the tests were reported from a Mac computer, and I’m waiting to receive copies for my Windows system. I was briefed verbally as to the results. High confidence factor the discovery location had not been searched previous to our find.
To be frank, I’m interested in selling it but have no clue how to place a value on it or where to proceed in this effort. I’m not a geologist and no experience in this process. I understand the rarity of it based on its size and what I’ve read on the web.
Thank you for your reply!
Bill
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crosstimber
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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 12:48    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

Bill,

This is a non-commercial site, so we will not provide information as to the value of your specimen. Also, I am inclined to agree with the responses of others in that this is almost certainly man-made carborundum.

Michael
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Bill E




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 12:56    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

Peter,
Thank you for responding. I completely expected this kind of reaction. With the existing published finds as you’ve shown, what more could I expect?
I am 100% convinced by the testing results provided by the University. I would be inclined to have a backup testing process done, only logical. Was considering contacting Washington University at St.Louis for this. I am open to advice in this area.
Forgive my layman approach to this as I obviously am an amateur. That said it should not automatically cultivate some of these responses. No disrespect intended.
Bill
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Bill E




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 12:58    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

Got it! I understand...
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Peter Lemkin




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 13:12    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

Well, with respect in return, you have not convinced anyone. You seem to be doing a sales pitch, rather than a geologic/mineralogical inquiry. You also won't tell if you found it or where it was found. It is only found in very specific and rare assemblages. Tons of it is man made and sold at fairs and mineral shows, etc. - often without people being informed it is man made. Natural is VERY rare, indeed - thus the skepticism, perhaps also because you seem more interested in its $ value than in its mineralogical value. With respect....
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Bill E




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 13:17    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

I understand. Sorry to have bothered everyone..
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lluis




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 13:19    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

That it is man made, few doubts... looks like a poor example of carborundum used to be sold as carborundum in some places. Nice, no doubt. Man made, no doubt.


For you to be so sure that it is natural (well, it is in nature, but is man-made, opposite to natural), I would like that you be so kind to show us the papers that say so....
A lab could say what they think (if tests well done). But *never* could assure that those are non man-made... Things of chemistry... We could say that anything is man made when too pure (say, a 99,99 % silver is by sure not a natural specimen), but never we can say that anything is natural..

And I am chemist... And maybe being too pompous, not that bad....

But anyway, if you wish to think it is natural, go ahead.


With best wishes

Lluís
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Jesse Fisher




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PostPosted: May 27, 2018 13:21    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

Hello Bill,

Naturally occurring moissanite is a fairly rare mineral, while it's man-made analog carborundum is fairly common. In a case such as this, provenance is vitally important in establishing that something is indeed natural. Where was it found? When was it found? Who found it? What geological environment did it occur in? If it came from a geological environment that could have conceivably have produced such a mineral, then its natural origin becomes more believable. If an independent party can discover more of it at this place, then it becomes even more so. In a case such as this, the trail of evidence is important. Without it, many people will naturally be skeptical.

Cheers,
Jesse
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Riccardo Modanesi




Joined: 07 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: May 28, 2018 11:36    Post subject: Re: Need advice on next step.  

Hi to everybody!
As a gemologist I can tell you moissanite (particularly synthetic moissanite) is widely used and cut as an imitation for diamond. The thermical point machine can't allow us to distinguish it from a natural diamond! Just a careful microscopic analysis or a detection by using the electrical point machine can help a gemologist to distinguish it from a diamond. It's cut in colorless, green, and yellowish colors.
Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.

_________________
Hi! I'm a collector of minerals since 1973 and a gemmologist. On Summer I always visit mines and quarries all over Europe looking for minerals! Ok, there is time to tell you much much more! Greetings from Italy by Riccardo.
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