FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[John S. White]

That was a quote from a dealer and the comment does not reflect my personal opinion. I would be quite happy to double my cost on most items and would be satisfied with less than that for more expensive items.

[Gail]

We had a rather common thing happen when we went with John to see a piece he had noted earlier from a dealer at the Inn suites. He had seen a few notable items for sale and bought a couple for himself. He told us about one, that was more significant in price, that he did not purchase but would love to show us. He knew what the asking price was, even though there was no tag on it.
The woman asked if we were the couple in the Spirifer publication she had seen. We said "Yes" and she said we had a nice write up. When we asked to see the piece, she pulled it out and told us the price, twice what John had been quoted...and here's the odd part, he was standing with us, she still gave the higher price. We were saddened as we offered her the original price she had quoted John. She said no, I think waiting for a bit of a barter, we thanked her and left, no sale was made.
This happened last year too, when a friend had taken a photo of a mineral for me, with price tag. I called the dealer, told him that I would be by to see it and could he hold it for me, pretty sure I would pick it up the next day. I told the dealer that my friend had seen it and told me about it. When I arrived the price had been jacked up considerably. I looked at him, told him I would give him $100 less than what he had it priced for the day before as that was punishment for him raising the price afterwards knowing that I was coming by. He apologized, agreed, and I bought it at a reasonable price.
It was not significant to our collection, but rather something I had plenty of. The interesting part was that I had taken this young man under my wing, and we had purchased quite a few things from him the year before.He cut his nose off to spite his face, as my Mother used to say.
I am not complaining, it is what it is, but I won't be doing business with either of these two vendors again.

[alfredo]

Along similar lines to Gail's story, Rock Currier tells a story about a new quartz crystal find he was told about in Brazil. After an arduous trek, he finally reached the miserable hole in the ground with a pile of mediocre quartz crystals beside it. Rock thought he may as well buy it, having come so far, and the pile couldn't be more than a couple hundred dollars anyway. "$20,000" said the miner. In shock, Rock asked, "Why only $20,000, why not $50,000?"
Answer: "Because the fazenda (ranch) I've always wanted to buy costs $20,000, and you're the first rich person I've met." Which is why Rock calls this the "fazenda pricing" system. It seems the fazenda pricing system has now spread from Brazil to the high end portion of the mineral market in the USA :))

Then there's the Arab "suk" pricing system: no price labels, but the merchant is extremely friendly, offers you tea, tells you some jokes to make you smile... so that he can count how many gold teeth you have, which is what the final price depends on. For this reason I usually only buy from dealers who have clearly marked prices, individually on each piece. No price marked = one might get a bargain, but much more likely one gets overcharged. I've probably missed a few good deals in Tucson and Munich by ignoring unpriced merchandise, but shifting back and forth between normal shopping mode and the more aggressive Arab market bargaining mode is too stressful.

[Philip Mostmans]

Something similar happened to a dealer friend of mine.
When the Fluorites with Calcite from Anhui Province in China where a novelty he had a fair and good selection of specimens all very decently priced. At one of the larger international shows there was a guy interested in one of the pieces, but only if the seller would knock a 100€ off the listed price. Since prices where already more than fair, the seller told the guy he could reduce the price by 50€ (already generous), but thats it. They made a deal and the specimen was sold. Half a day later I spot the same specimen in a case of one of the "High end" sellers for about 10 times the price. Apparently one of his minions had bought the piece for him, afraid he would otherwise be recognized. He written up a label and put it in his cabinet. There was another sticker of the label with "SOLD" on it.
To this day I still haven't figured out which person in this I feel the most sorry for.
The dealer friend who sold the piece in the first place, the minion acting of his/her bosses orders and having the nerve to ask for a discount, the high end dealer jacking up the price (just because he can), the poor sob who bought the specimen and about 10X the price or the average joe collector missing out on an opportunity again, because he simply can't afford it.

I sometimes wonder where it will all stop? People like that take all the fun out of the hobby.

[Philip Mostmans]

[alfredo]

Then there was the well-known German dealer at the Executive Inn last year (Tucson 2012) who, after I'd selected several pieces and was ready to check out, told me the label prices were actually euros, and I'd have to pay about 30% more in US dollars!

Some Eastern European dealers, too lazy to change their price dots between shows, leave the same numbers, meaning euros in Munich and dollars in Tucson, so the American shopper is getting a better bargain.

[Greg Toomey]

Gail,
I've known of some dealers who adjust their prices early during a show, but the show at the Inn Suites was in full throttle when you arrived - no excuse for that behavior.
Back in the 1990's at a small mineral show, just after the opening, I saw a great (and huge) undamaged Elmwood fluorite, sphalerite and Baryte combo piece that was priced extremely low. When I showed an interest in purchasing it, the dealer said they were told by three other dealers just before the show opened that it was priced way too low, that the prices of Elmwood had skyrocketed since it was last offered for sale 3 years before, and they were going to reprice it accordingly. I pointed out that the original tag was still on the specimen, and then asked how much more they wanted. The response I got was that it would be at least double, maybe more, and I tried to work out a reasonable solution. I was then told that they were thinking of taking it off the display, and that at it was currently not for sale. I went back to the show on the last day and it was still there, at the original price. When I asked about it, the dealer said that they were so busy they had not had "time" to decide what to do with it, but it was no longer for sale at the show. He retired from the mineral business the following year at the Tucson Show.
Looking back, it was a bargain at double or triple the price (or even more), but I'm more satisfied that I didn't purchase it and play games with that dealer!

[chris]

Things like that happen in Sainte-Marie too. I experienced it myself once after telling to a dealer to bring a specimen I was interested in. When he shown me the specimen the price tag was up by 40%. Consequence : he kept it. This is the reason why I no longer ask for specifics from dealers (put apart a very few selected ones). Thus the risk of having an increase on the price tag because one knows he has a potential customer lowers. But it won't prevent what happened to Gail. So, I think it is our "duty" to wander around and make comparisons whatever our budget.

Philip I have the same story for you from Sainte-Marie. Could it be the very same dealer ? Between the regular "show" and the Sainte-Marie theater (high end) the price had increased 10 times.

But is it so amazing ? As a friend of mine who is dealer pointed to me. He often sees people not even watching is booth and going directly to more reknowned dealer booths, where same specimens are sold several times higher than at his own. As if these people were more attracted by the reputation of the dealer than by his prices ?

And for the Chinese, the only time I bought something directly to one of them, I got a discount. But I practicised the teachings of a friend of mine knowing China quite well. Thanks to her I left the show without experiencing the Chinese calculator some experienced. However it was some years ago and I'm not sure it would still work today.

Cheers

Christophe

[Woody Thompson]

This discussion of mineral pricing is fascinating. I'm reminded of a long-ago talk at the Rochester (New York) Mineral Symposium. A prominent eastern dealer was discussing mineral prices, when he made the comment that "If a specimen sold, it was too cheap" (meaning, in essence, "I could have wrung a little more out of it.") I think he was kidding, but I'm still not sure!

Unfortunately, it seems that some of the high-end Tucson dealers have transcended that point by far, charging the price of a new car for some small specimens that appear to be mediocre in quality (dings, poor composition, not rare or well xllized, etc.). "Two extra zeroes" is often the rule, meaning that many of us are priced out of the market on the sorts of material that we need to improve our collections.

[alfredo]

These are what auctioneers call "light a candle prices"... (Go to church, light a candle, and thank the good lord for delivering you an ignorant but very solvent buyer.)

However ridiculous the high end dealers are getting, their pricing antics still pale in comparison to prices achieved by some art. Can a painting of sunflowers really have 7 zeros after the number? It doesn't matter that 99.99% of the human race thought the price was absurd. The seller only needs ONE person willing to pay the price. If TWO people get into a bidding war, and the entire rest of the human race thinks the price is stupid, doesn't matter, the seller is still in heaven.

But that segment of the mineral market, where minerals are professionally promoted just like fine art, or as "investments", has no relevance to the average middle class collector. I completely disagree with John and others that this phenomenon is scaring anyone at all away from the hobby. The high-priced dealers get most of the attention in magazines, internet show reports and after-hours gossip, but the majority of dealers in Tucson, Munich, Denver and Sainte Marie have far fewer zeros on their labels. As a buyer, if you follow the crowds to the most brightly lit booths with $20,000 display cases, then yes you will see high prices. Go to some poor Third World dealer outside in a dusty tent with no lighting and with patience and good observation among the busted up junk you will find some very undervalued pieces that just need a good wash and trim to turn them into valuable specimens. All part of the fun.

[Philip Mostmans]

I still think it comes down to your basic supply and demand. As long as there are people buying , dealers are justified to keep or raise the prices.

It is the same with people "job-hopping" and asking more every time they change jobs. At one point they will put themselves outside of the market, because they are simply too expensive compared to the work that needs doing.

What I don't understand is that with every single show in recent years prices seem to have gone up. You see a lot of collection recycling going on with many nice and world class specimens in it. I can agree they fetch high prices. I've met the occasional dealer putting up a ridiculous amount of money on a specimen, just because he actually doesn't want to sell. This is different. High prices seem to be commonplace right now. The decent quality minerals and subsequently the mediocre and low end of the spectrum get the same price boost, I pass.

I respect dealers and acknowledge that they must make a living as well, but simply raising the price "because they can" is not acceptable. However a sale is a commitment which leaves both sides "happy" and when collectors buy ridiculously overpriced minerals, simply because they come from a certain dealer I can't argue with that. They are happy for receiving there prestigious specimen and the dealer is happy for getting his money. Other dealers want that same part of the action and subsequently raise their prices too for mediocre or bad quality specimens. Even then I cannot really blame them, they are only trying to make a living.

It is this general tendency I can't live with, since it makes finding a good quality specimen for a good and fair price near impossible. The only positive side about this is that when you do find such specimen I find it's much more rewarding to acquire it, than it used to be.

On the other hand if a collector came to me and offered me an obscene price for one of my specimens I am willing to sell would I refuse? I don't know...

[GneissWare]

As a counterpoint, sometimes if the price is too low based on the competition, then people will not buy as they think there must be something wrong with the lower priced specimen. It takes an educated buyer to overcome this as most people equate quality and price.

Minerals are interesting from a pricing perspective because it is wholly subjective -- a dealer may really like a specimen because it appeals to him personally and thus mark it higher, whereas others may think it is nothing special. Also, how does a dealer come up with a price for old classic recycled specimens that are not available on the market? Some of the big dealers who price these kinds of specimens apply a pain threshold, I think, in which they try to balance the yearning of the collector to own such a piece with the collector's desire to have money left to eat.

There is certainly a philosophical divide in the dealer community. There are folks who sell everything at high prices, but also have the very best material. And, they don't mind 10+ times markups. These are also the folks with full page color ads in the magazines. There is the other group of dealers who you always go to because you know they have nice specimens at fair prices. Again, it takes an buyer to see the value of the offered specimens.

Lastly, the comments by Gail were interesting, and don't only apply to the mineral world. I live on a street that further up from me has really rich people. Most contractors, like plumbers, think everyone who lives on that street is rich. So, when I try to get a bid from someone I avoid telling them the address until after I get a ballpark estimate, because I know they have a rich-guy surcharge.

[John S. White]

i have to disagree somewhat with my friend Alfredo. Most novice collectors are not familiar with the opportunities that abound when one searches the inventories of many of the tent dealers along the frontage roads, and they do not trust their judgement enough to know or recognize a potential bargain should they stumble upon one. They also lack the knowledge of recognizing that some judicious cleaning or trimming can do wonders for some pieces. Furthermore, they have no clue what a fair price should be so that puts them in a very awkward position should they decide to try to negotiate the price. Alfredo's scheme can work very well for experienced collectors and, in fact, were it not for such opportunities I would leave Tucson with very little in the way of new acquisitions.

[Joan Kureczka]

I've heard from friends who carry excellent quality specimens but are somewhat more reasonably priced than their top priced colleagues, that some of those with the super-high pricing have pressured them over the years to also raise their prices (which they've mostly rejected). There does seem to be a little collusion sometimes at the top. The very best is reaching stratospheric prices based on some wealthy collectors' willingness to pay top dollar for "natural art" -- mostly a matter of supply and demand.. But unfortunately some think that even mediocre pieces can command "fantasy pricing".

[John S. White]

The quote of the show:

My very good friend David Wilber assembled one of the very first collections of what we would consider outstandingly aesthetic and beautiful mineral specimens, far in advance of what has become fashionable today, as is seen by examples like many of the collections in the MAD and HAMS groups from Dallas and Houston respectively. So, when I had a chance to chat with David at this year's Tucson Show, I started to ask him if he had those minerals today, what in his opinion would he guess they would be worth at today's prices. Before I could finish the questioin, he put his hand on my arm, looked me straight in the eye and said "Half a billion dollars." No doubt this is a fair estimate, assuming that today's prices mean anything.

Published with permission from David.