FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[John S. White]

Peter - there is a big difference between hiddenite and names like indicolite and rubellite. As you know, hiddenite is the name of a specific location, so the question refers to the reasonableness of using that name for green spodumene that is not from Hiddenite. Indicolite and rubellite are colors, so there is no geographical connection. Luiz, I believe, complicates the argument in introducing brazilianite because that is a species name and its use is required no matter where it comes from. The same is true for all mineral species names that are derived from specific geographical locations, such as benitoite, graftonite, durangite, cornwallite, etc. Benitoite from Japan is still benitoite. Essentially there are rules for species names, there are none for varietal names. You can call them anything you want. The funniest one that I am aware of is the attempt by some to call red beryl from Utah "red emerald." That is completely crazy, in my opinion. If you are going to corrupt common sense to that degree, then I suggest calling it ruby emerald. That is even crazier!

[Peter]

I fully agree John only I believe the Cr (V) bearing emerald green spodumene variety was named after Mr William Hidden. The town got it's name after Hidden and the variety Hiddenite if my memory is not failing.

[John S. White]

Your memory is fine and you are quite correct. But, of course, the variety is associated now with the community.

[Peter]

Dear John
My note was originally mcuh more extensive but was lost while sending from an ipad.
I was comparing with Morganite named after J.P. Morgan. Of course with variety name of a mineral specie one should read all the original documents and notes of the discoverer/s to try to understand their intention and reasoning for the naming, which may be more specified as sience developed of course.
The russian named short prismatic alcali rich beryl of white and later pink color from pegmatites in the Urals and Transbaikal Vorobyevite. Now the pink variety was later called Morganite in the USA which has now been accepted almost worldwide.
Take care and I hope to see you soon my friend!
Peter

[Rick S.]

In the old literature about the pegmatite localities in Connecticut green beryl was always referred to as Emerald but it did not contain Vanadium either. The color was shown to be due to iron . No emerald has ever been found in CT (or any other New England State) as far as I know.

[Peter]

Regarding red emerald I agree John, why not throw in the Ruby Emerald name, better and crazier. I call green beryl from Finland just that, green Beryl. Yes, in Finland
(Karelia Beryl Mine, to be correct the registered claim name is "Karelia Mine" and the Mining company "Karelia Beryl!") some are true golden color or real heliodore but most are not. There are some very strong green color also, very unusual color.

[cascaillou]

Hi people :-)

Here's what I've been teached:

Green beryl is coloured by iron, emerald is coloured by chromium and/or vanadium

Green spodumene is coloured by iron, hiddenite is coloured by chromium.

The presence of chromium can be detected by gemmological tools such as spectroscope and chelsea filter.

I hope that helps.

[Barry Vincent]

Recently I purchase a specimen of 'Hiddenite' Spodumene from that famous web site. It was from Pakistan and when it arrive it was a lovely emerald green colour.
Now, over a period of about 9 months it has a lovely clear colourless appearence.
Ah well, live and learn :)

[Peter]

Although the color of some Afghan spodumene (in principle no spodumene is mined in Pakistan! although most Afghan specimens are sold in Peshawar, Afghanistan) can remind some people of these rare Hiddenites, that is all it is, a temporary similar color. Any Cr bearing and nicely green colored spodumene from anywhere I would call Hiddenite but until now I am not aware of a second region, not even in Brazil. Green spodumene I call green spodumene. Many of these varietal names comes from the gem trade.

Indigolite was discovered in the Li pegmatites in the Utö iron mine worked already by Vikings in the south Stockholm archipelago and described in 1801 if I recall correctly.

There it states the Indigo blue variety of tourmaline Indicolite in the English version which I think in fact is a simple miss-print at the time. It was discovered in Sweden and was always called IndiGolite in Sweden, Germany, France, Russia etc. but most often spelled indiColite in the English speaking world likely due to the 200 year old printing error!
Always take care not to expose some minerals like spodumene (except for real Hiddenite variety), realgar, crocoite, champagne colored topaz etc to strong sun light.

[Jordi Fabre]

[Barry Vincent]

Thank you Peter for your prompt reply to my comments concerning the 'colour changing' Spodumene. It was interesting to note that the Pakistani dealer mentioned that it was heat treated , but failed to mention that it is only temporary. So he was being 'half honest ;)
And yes, you are correct, the specimen is listed as originating from Afghanistan.
I had no problem with knowing that it was heat treated. It didn't cost all that much, being a large 'thumbnail' size specimen.

[Barry Vincent]