FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Jim]

Has anyone seen the latest article in JCK Magazine about a Paraiba tourmaline company potentially suing the AGTA and GIA over the extension of the name "Paraiba tourmaline" to all cuprian elbaite regardless of origin? Apparently, the debate on what is a Paraiba tourmaline rages on!

[Jordi Fabre]

For me the answer is very easy: "Paraíba Tourmaline" mean Elbaite (Tourmaline) from Paraíba, that's what its name say. Other cuprian Elbaites (Tourmalines) from other places could be named: "Cuprian Tourmalines looking like the Paraíba ones, but not from there" ;-), or to simplify: "Cuprian Elbaite".

Anything new about the "elastic" names used by the world of gemstones. John wrote a wonderful article about it on Rock & Minerals, when he be back from his trip maybe he could add something.

Jordi

[Jim]

Thanks for your input, Jordi!

Locality can be an important determinant of value for mineral specimens, as well as for gems (e.g., Burma vs Vietnam ruby; Colombian versus Brazilian emerald, etc.). Mineral collectors probably value cuprian elbaite from Brazil higher than from specimens from other sources, but it seems to me that only the most serious gem connoisseur would care about locality. Color and quality are the foremost considerations to gem buyers -- it often does not matter where the material is from.

In fact, one of the most well-known and advanced gem collectors in the world has told me more than once that he never pays premiums for localities! Mineral collectors would be flabbergasted at such a notion.

[Pete Modreski]

Another gem mineral name like this that comes to mind is "Siberian" amethyst, used for a particular (hope I'm saying this right) vivid red-purple shade of amethyst. It think it is fair to say that this term has become generally used for any amethyst of this shade of color, regardless of its place of origin. Searching for this term on the web, the first website I encountered that described & pictured Siberian amethyst stones, gave"place of origin = Africa" for them. Now of course, careful and more professional and scientific writers, would still put "Siberian" in quotes.

Happily though, this problem mostly applies to gemstones or gem material, rather than mineral specimens, so no one is going to refer to a MINERAL specimen of blue cuprian elbaite from Africa, as Paraiba Tourmaline. They might refer to it as "Paraiba-type tourmaline", which is fine.

Pete

[robynahawk]

I think that this is going to be an ongoing problem as the demand for gems grows. The TV Shopping Channels have added a huge audience to the world of gems & jewelry.
As well as the advanced prospecting and mining techniques being used in 3rd World Countries...it is going to be an issues with many different gems.

I have heard there are rumblings about the "Tahitian Pearls" they are growing off the Southern Coast of Australia! ...and what about stones that have their originating location as their name! Spessartite, Tanzanite, Bytownite....etc!

As far as Paraiba Tourmaline - these new finds have also opened new opportunities for the mines in Paraiba, as we now think of Paraiba Toumaline as any Copper Bearing Tourmaline - not just the Neon Aqua!

Just food for though...

Robyn Hawk

[Pete Modreski]

And then, of course, there is the matter of the provenance of ...

Champagne !

[Carles Curto]

Gemmology (or, more comcretely Jewellery, may be?) seems not specially careful with names and localities. I add the habitual treatments to accentuate or simply change the color. Paraiba Elbaite is not an exception.
But this methods seems to be more and more exported to the especimens of mineral collection. Last Munich show offers a lot of Pakistan turmalines thermically coloured. Some dealers advert it, but not some other.

[Joan R.]

Herewith attached you could find the interesting columns wrote by John S. White about Paraíba Tourmaline.

Columns about Paraíba Turmaline controversy published by John S. White
on the volume 82, Mars/April 2007
of the ROCKS & MINERALS magazine: https://www.rocksandminerals.org/

[alfredo]

If a polar bear is born in a zoo in Australia, is it still a polar bear or not?

[Jordi Fabre]

Of course is it Alfredo, but is not an "Alaskan polar bear" but just a polar bear.
Problem with Paraíba Tourmaline is that its name includes not only the species name but also its location.

Jordi

[alfredo]

Exactly, Jordi. But "alaskan" is an adjective describing where the bear came from; it's not part of the species name. So we need to decide whether "paraiba", "herkimer", etc., are locality adjectives, or part of a genuine distinguishable variety name. If it's a locality name, then using it for something from somewhere else is fraud. But if it's part of a varietal or species name, it can legitimately be used for material with the same chemistry/structure/appearance from anywhere. There is a difference between a varietal name and a locality label. The proponents of the "uniqueness" of herkimer-type quartz from Herkimer are trying to have it both ways - they want the name to be both a locality label and a varietal name, simultaneously.

Brazilian gem dealers want electric-blue tourmalines from anywhere in northeastern Brazil (not only Paraiba) to be called "paraiba tourmaline", but deny this right to electric-blue copper-bearing tourmalines from elsewhere. That is strictly a commercial brand-name issue they can argue in the courts, but it has nothing to do with mineralogy, gemmology or any other science!

Personally, I don't use varietal names at all - they are just "quartz" and "Cu-bearing tourmaline" in my collection.

[Tracy]

Norway Spruce (Picea abies), Siberian Husky (recognized by the AKC as an official breed), Baltimore Oriole (Icterus galbula), Canada Goose (Branta canadensis), Chilean Sea Bass/Patagonian toothfish (Dissostichus eleginoides), Swiss cheese, Spanish omelet, Turkish coffee...what a slippery slope this is. Zoos do not post signs identifying California Condors as "black vultures with patches of white on the underside of the wings and a largely bald head with skin color ranging from yellowish to a bright red," and restaurants do not list on their menus "a style of pork sausage which is noted for its seasoning of fennel and/or anise, containing at least 85% meat" rather than Italian sausage. Do varietals qualify as legitimate parts of names, even if common names only, or simply as descriptors? I doubt there's one "correct" answer here.

Just my 2 cents...

[Pete Modreski]

All very interesting and amusing and curious.

Hearkening back to my earlier comment about champagne, I often still get a chuckle when I think about a vignette from one of the radio episodes of Garrison Keillor's "Prairie Home Companion". His character is dining at Lake Wobegon's only erstwhile gourmet restaurant, the Café Boeuf, and he is telling the snooty French waiter "Why don't you carry any Oregon Chardonnays, they are pretty good". The outraged waiter sneers to him, obviously barely controlling his temper, "Oh, so then tell me, Monsieur, just where is this place in Oregon called, "Chardonnay"? "

One could do the same skit about Paraiba tourmaline, etc., but I guess the mass of the people would not comprehend the humor.

Pete

[lluis]

Good evening

But in this case, in the Chardonnay, the name comes from the varietal wine plant...
So, in purity, a Chardonnay made from chardonnay wine plants (well, grapes), could be named Chardonnay. :-). Like a Pinot gris, a Pinot noir, a Shiraz, a Muscat...
But not a Tokaj not made in Humgary, or a Sauternes not made in France....Or a champagne not made in Champagne region (although I prefer cava...You know, catalans are very fond of that :-) )

And I got quite upset when I read one time, in the net, an offering of a specimen as Paraiba tourmaline, from Madagascar..... :-)

With best wishes

Lluís

[lluis]

Sorry, I forget

Other would be a Chablis
It is made with Chardonnay, with an special process.
A Chablis out of France, is not a Chablis
And a grilled seabass with a Chablis, should be a sin.
Is so good! :-)

With best wishes

Lluís