FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Ed Huskinson]

Ha Tony. You're just jealous because Pater Lemke beat you to the punch with "...museum of the unattainable." Or maybe that should be "unobtainable" ala "unobtainium". Regardless, you are right on in your thinking. I'm glad to see John Rakovan on the panel, and look forward to seeing what he has to say.
Later pard.

Ed.

[Tony L. Potucek]

[rweaver]

[Peter Lemkin]

[rweaver]

Peter, very well said about who Josie was. I was very lucky to be one of those folks she let hang out with her. I was one of her Yellow Hats on field trips and one of her drivers for many years. She was one of a kind and well- liked everywhere she went. Pete B. and John S. were also a lot like her back in the day as well. There was a very good group of mineral collectors in San Diego at one time and I learned a lot from them. I think we met a long time ago at the Collector before going up to the Himalaya Mine with Bill.

[Jesse Fisher]

Not that I want to necessarily beat an already injured horse to death, but I think the use of the term "industry" to describe the mineral collecting hobby suggests a potential bias built in to the discussion, which a few have already commented on. A hobby is an activity that people engage in for pleasure, without regard to whether it will make a monetary profit or not. An industry implies activity aimed at making a profit. While I think the vast majority of people involved in mineral collecting do so on a hobby basis, there is certainly an industry that has grown up in recent years geared to servicing the growth of affluent collectors entering the hobby. Not that there is necessarily something wrong with this, but it has had the effect of creating a class-like stratification in the mineral collecting community, which I think was not nearly so obvious back when I first acquired the collecting disease about 30 years ago.

To reuse Peter's phrase (and I hope he has trade-marked it), I think the major mineral shows have truly become "museums of the unattainable" for the many collectors who can not afford thousands of dollars for a half-decent specimen, along with the time and expense involved with attending these shows. Many of these folks now content themselves with buying and selling on the internet. Does this "industry" serve this segment of the community? What about the folks who spend countless hours (and perhaps a fair amount of money) trying to dig their own treasures? What about the people who spend countless hours creating those wonderfully detailed photos of micro-minerals we see on Mindat? What about the folks who spend countless hours researching scientific and historical topics to produce the books and journals that at least some of us fill our libraries with? What about the kid who has a nascent interest in science and nature? The list goes on...

But to get to the point, business will always be business, but I just hope this discussion will be about more than the mechanics of buying and selling expensive minerals to the relatively few folks in the collecting community that can afford them.

[BlueCapProductions]

Breakfast With Minerals: Episode 1 is now live!!

Check it out here:

https://bwm.fireside.fm/01

[Gail]

Jesse. Huh?

Our interview focuses on the positive and the future, not lamenting over the victimhood of of people who wish things were like they used to be.
We actually don’t blame anyone for the way things are. We are interested in keeping the hobby alive and well. One has the option to not listen to this broadcast but we hope people, with a desire for stimulating conversation, will.

[Peter Lemkin]

[Peter Lemkin]

Well, the podcast covered a lot of ground. Some thoughts on some of that ground. Yes, it is true that education in the basic sciences ain't what it used to be. A lot of times when mineral-naive persons come to my place and see my collection they think I carved them ;-). When I tell them they are all naturally formed and especially when I point to those I have found myself, they exclaim that they never saw a rock like that just sitting on the ground. Yes, education in the geosciences would be nice. So would be more museums. Sad to hear that some are closing for financial reasons. I know of some opening up in old mining areas in Colorado. Many of the old mining towns have long had fabulous local collections from miners or miner/collectors who died and gave their collections to the town...but only recently are they putting the money into displaying them. I had the privilege to go through some boxes of such a donation at a famous CO mining town to pull out what I thought were the best specimens to display. I was blown away by what was in those boxes! We all 'naturally' respond to lovely xx, but many can't see much in them - and maybe part of it is not knowing just the basics of how crystals form, atomic structure, geology etc. I'm always blown away by having beautiful macroscopic manifestations of atomic structure and atomic bonding. They are also just plain beautiful, but I think much more so if one knows what is actually going on on the atomic level and how they formed.

More generally, I think many in contemporary society - especially the young - are not tuned into Nature and the Natural, but are more engaged in the razzle and dazzle of their smartphones and social media etc. along with a society increasingly getting away from things and thoughts Natural. I'm biased. I'm trained as a scientist and one in the Environmental Sciences at that.

Not too much discussed, but touched upon was the increase in prices. While it is true that at most shows one can still find reasonably priced specimens, at the premier shows the prices dazzle as much as the xx - and this is quite a change from the past. So, I have been in the habit of not only going to the premier shows, but 'secondary' smaller / local shows. However, many - not all - of these have slowly turned into more of beads, healing crystals, and non-mineral things I never understood being sold at mineral shows. Here in the Czech Republic many of the mineral shows have really gone downhill for the most part, sadly. One that is not advertised to the public, but only to the mineralogical community still holds its own for me. The Munich Show is spectacular, but so are the prices of so many of the specimens. There is nothing wrong with that....premium specimens deserve premium prices - but I question HOW MUCH they have increased. It is certainly way way way above the rate of inflation. And any show that wants to stay in business, I think, needs to have a range of prices - and that would mean some mid-level and even some below-mid-level priced dealers [but still of quality specimens - if not top-shelf].

[Jordi Fabre]

Great Podcast discussion, I enjoyed a lot, and great oppinions here too. When I can find time I will try to add some thoughts.

[Peter Lemkin]

Ah, yes....another interesting part of the discussion I forgot to react to here....about mining companies not caring about specimens. Long been true...long been true. I spend a lot of time up in the Telluride-Ouray mining area - and there are many stories and photos to prove them of miners who'd stop for moment to show fellow workers the most amazing and HUGE crystals or crystal clusters, and then throw them into the ore car or crusher. Luckily some were smart enough or had enough esthetic appreciation to put them in the 'lunchbox'. In other places mining foremen would sometimes ask miners to give them any interesting and unusual XX. We have lost most of the great XX ever mined and continue to do so. The big mining companies and those who make the decisions in them are 1] totally unaware of the beauty and even value of XX 2] don't want to make waves or slow down production, even for a few minutes or hours 3] are focused on the one or few mineral/metal products their mine produces and the hell with the other strange pockets with them in great xx or other minerals associated with them. I hope more can be convinced to find a way to meet the mineral-mad folks like us half way. It is in their interest too - even it they don't realize it. As a strange and rather macabre tale along these lines. I imagine most of you collectors know of the famous Czech location called Pribram [actually there are many mines, but collectively known by that name]. Some fantastic mineral specimens have come out of there. There is one guy who comes to shows and sells bits of what I once went to his home to see the full extent of. During the communist period here, political prisoners were sent into this [and other] mines to do hard labor. He was a guard and would give them small 'privileges' if they brought him interesting xx...and thus amassed tons of interesting materials mildly unethically. Oddly, he seems to believe he will live forever, as at the rate he is selling at shows, he'd have to live to be 1000 to sell half of what he has.

[Bob Carnein]

I listened to half of this and thought it was very interesting. I kind of wonder, though, where it goes from here. The talk was wide ranging, touching on a lot of issues that we have all thought about. Will future talks be a bit more organized, in terms of topics? If not, I probably will skip listening--there are only so many hours in the day.

With regard to astronomical prices, I worry that the same thing will happen to minerals at some point in the future that happened to antiques a decade ago. Except for the extremely rare items that most collectors can't afford, the bottom fell out of that market and hasn't yet recovered (although there are signs of life). It seems to me that some antiques dealers spent much of their time selling to wealthy buyers while ignoring or not cultivating the future collectors, who wanted to see things and learn. Could this happen to the mineral world?

I don't think mineral collectors should think of their collection as an "investment", because most of them probably will be disappointed at some time in the future, especially if they expect to sell the collection to a dealer. Although the best advice has always been to buy the best you can afford, that doesn't mean an unsophisticated but wealthy collector (there seem to be a lot of those out there) will recoup the costs when it comes time to sell. My advice to collectors would be to learn everything you can and then buy (or dig) what you find most interesting. My advice to dealers is that they focus more of their attention on the mid-range but sophisticated collectors who may become the connoisseurs of the future.

[James Catmur]

It is always interesting to see how fashion affects the price of things.

I have a house that is full of old brown furniture dating from the 17th to 19th century. We had it valued about 20 years ago for insurance purposes and it was worth a good sum. After my wife died in 2016 I had to have it valued for probate and was told that it is basically worth 1/10th of what it was insured for! Fashion is now for small, light colored furniture and large, brown furniture is worth almost nothing. Looking at prices at auction since then things we had valued at £1000 20 years ago now go for £100, so that looks about right!

So our collections are basically a reflection of the current fashion. If that changes then they will change in value. I have the space for my collection (when we married and bought this house one of the criteria was that it had to have a 'rock room' that could house my collection. A number of times we did not move as there was no 'rock room'). Many people will not have the space required and I am sure we will see fashion change. So the future will not just depend on new people but also on fashion.

My grandfather built the world's largest collection of printer ephemera (The John Johnson Collection, in Oxford). It was gifted to a museum, as that was his wish. At the moment it is valued by the museum (although it has been moved to the basement and the room it was in is now a far more fashionable cafe) but who knows what the future will bring.

[Peter Lemkin]

PI for one have never seen or felt my mineral collection as an 'investment' or even as a financial asset. I has worth and that worth has obviously increased greatly over the years with the asymptotic rise in mineral prices. But, I collected them and purchased/traded them because i love and cherish them. I could never sell them when alive. They have intrinsic value as beautiful manifestations of Nature, atomic structure, crystalline structure, geology and geological processes, time, etc. All of these elements were created in the inner cores of older stars and spread through space by the explosion [supanovae] of stars in their death throws; then drifted as interstellar dust and eventually were consolidated into proto-stellar systems and then into planets - and specifically this one Gaia [Earth]. That to me is their only real value - along with their beauty, mystery, and what they can tell about atomic, chemical and geological processes. Of course, they also have monetary value - I am not naive, but what always has bothered me is when persons see them first [or only] for their financial value or worst their 'investment' value - and minimize or ignore their intrinsic value as Natural objects of beauty and awe. If the 'bottom drops out' of the mineral market, as a collector, it will be wonderful - of course it would be devastating to those who make a living selling them. Hopefully, the astronomical prices of many items will come down and remain stable - I think that would benefit all in the long run and ensure a lasting legacy of sellers and buyers. I somehow can't imagine that interest in mineral specimens and collecting could ever really drop drastically, due to their intrinsic value and beauty. Rise or Fall in external value, the value to me of my collection remains the same......

[Peter]

Breakfast with minerals

I am heavily influenced by having started as a toddler, picking up white quartz, tan and red feldspars and a few tiny muscovite flakes from gravel on my grandparents walkway) originating at the Vallhamn granite quarry at Tjörn Island, Bohuslän, Sweden). I kept my treasures, my collection in a tiny matchbox, all of it! The following spring when I could walk, I collected my first "floating rock" a pumice, followed by many other from the revet Surtsey eruption in November 1963. Tiny quartz crystals, like in our world atlas, were extremely exciting to find in the cliffs by the beach.

Where I am going is the importance of nurturing small and bigger children, and up to adults to observe, and study, maybe even collect some minerals in nature. The thrill of own discovery can not be beaten.

I think it is needed with many many more programs in TV, radio, of all kinds to expose the general public to geology, minerals ,and all the sciences around them.

Museums, mineral shows, rock shops, societies, journals, games, specimens in public places, even varied gravel in cities where many people pass, ..... can you imagine my joy to find clear fluorite of many colors scattered in gravel, or tiny pyrite cubes in the same, or graphite crystals in calcite in the gravel in flower pots outside a Chinese restaurant... all as a child....or at age 8 finding my own crystal cave. I never removed any crystals from inside the cave. But it made ever lasting memories.

I wish everyone on the planet had the same exposure to minerals as we do to coral reefs, plants, jungles, volcanoes, birds, animals, fish, ... and much more of minerals than football), soccer that is), car races, motorbikes, beer etc).

Therefore there should ideally be dedicated road rest stops in conjunction with interesting road cuts, old quarries and mines should NOT be allowed to be filled in, covered up, sealed, but be protected just as forests, historical buildings.... Kids should have a chance to collect some simple or advanced minerals in local old quarries.

Local collectors say exhibit some local minerals in libraries, schools, flower shops, food store,,,,, I found great joy in getting a tumbled gem as a kid from a Shell gas station when we filled up with gas there.

Every exposure is so precious.

Ideally all kids who do fall in love with beautiful minerals, crystals, banded rocks... we really need to take care of, hand them some crystals to hold in the hand and feel, give them something to bring home. The excitement for a curious child to clean off the mud of an Moroccan aragonite crystal group , or opening a geode is great.

I have made permanent (built in or in display cases) exhibits of minerals in public places such as hospital, hockey arena, educational institutions etc.... without a penny profit and no payment for the work.

Give a child an MR, a coloring book, all those things discussed. We certainly are not attracting our children as they do in China, on such massive scale.

Minerals are the base for modern society. Not much of what we use and do modern society is grown in the ground or shaved off a sheep except for food and clothing.

Every angle, every location can contribute to enhance the exposure.

World famous mineralogy Professor Igor Pekov found a piece of Jasper on a Moscow street at age 8 that triggered his interest. We could and should have some mine run material in public places in big and s,aller cities.....

If you are arranging a mineral show near a mine, get some fresh truckloads of minerals from the mine with crystals and put a dump near the show. It will be open free access when the show opens and if interesting it will be gone before the show is over.

I could go on forever but thank you for your patience, Everyone, doing the slightest thing is appreciated.

The for those who are hoarders, raking the deer food from any bit of agate that will end up filling your basement, maybe leave 99% and bring a ounce or two home instead.

Where I was born there was a lake in Sweden with an entire beach of beautiful deep purple amethyst and some white and purple banded... a few years later locals had collected tens of tons just to tumble. Obviously the interest and impact would have been much better to let kids go and see this beach and bring a piece or two home.

Cheers
Peter

[Peter Lemkin]

Some of us were mesmerized by minerals/crystals very early in life. In fact, I can't imagine it being otherwise. As I mentioned I talked my parents into taking me on my first field collecting trip to Franklin, New Jersey [we lived in the suburbs of NYC] when I was eight. By then I already had a mineral collection several years old - some self collected, a few pieces given to me by a parent's friend who was a science teacher. The self collected were from the beach sands of our summer house, from trips to the Appalachian Mts in 'upstate' New York summer vacations - I even found a 25Kg milky quartz XX just lying by a hiking path [others had not seen it for what it was, apparently] and my father and I carried it back to the car. Sadly, it was very weathered having been on the surface a very long time, but clearly showed the six sides and the faces on one end.

Other people just don't 'see' minerals or crystals. Some few when they see my mineral collection have a blank face and will sometimes say 'but these are just rocks'. But they are the exception - most react very positively and in amazement at the forms, colors and I have an area of my collection of 'minerals that do something' - that usually amazes those who are naive about minerals.

I was always fascinated by the Natural World and all parts of it. The nice thing about minerals is they don't need watering, feeding or too much special care as do biological materials - but they too I have at times collected to a much more limited extent.

Most children collect interesting stones and keep them in their pockets or in their room, some of us just never stopped and got interested in more sophisticated specimens......and in collecting them. I'm glad, however, that not everyone shares our level of passion in minerals - for if they did just imagine what prices at shows would be and how hard we'd have to fight both at shows and at field collection places for them. I go to some fantastic field collection places and am nearly always amazed that I'm the only person there - although there are usually signs that others have been in the area before....other mineral-mad people that share our passion and minority hobby. I'm sure many more are interested in cars, football, movie stars lives, romance novels, crossword puzzles, and other such than are seriously interested in minerals - and maybe that is best that way [for us].

[Peter]

The blank face I have not seen too much of, but as a student it happened that when inviting friends home for dinner etc, one in a couple observed in amazement while the other with sadly narrowed intellect immediately asked, is it worth anything! What can you do with it.

I remember well going out in the middle of nowhere one evening to the Jacumba pegmatite district towards the Mexican border in southern California with a few friends stumbling upon another nature and mineral lover.

[Peter Lemkin]

[Jordi Fabre]

Very interesting comments.

In many of them I believe I can find a common characteristic. Apparently we all remember well how we were passionate about minerals: suddenly something exploded in our heads when we found a mineral (or even a rock) when we were very young and that was what we were passionate about. I am afraid that all of us are currently "seniors" and we forget a little that nowadays the world is VERY different of the world in which we were born.
The kids today are mostly interested in digital contents. They already are a digital generation and very few analogical things interest they anymore. Our world was 100% analogic and his world is mostly digital so if we want to transmit our passion for this hobby we should think about how to do it in a digital way.

I am an action person, so without much more reflection it occurs to me that there is something we could do now.
We all spend countless hours consulting (digitally) our favorite mineral pages, among which I think there are two with a very large number of visits: Mindat and this Forum. Why not create something that interests our children / grandchildren that can be strongly related with Mindat and FMF and that allows us to avoid to be isolate ourselves in "our" favorite pages (and, in some way, put aside our sons/grandsons) and on this way try to share this new page with they and thus maybe interest they in our hobby? When we will be surfing through Mindat or FMF and our children / grandchildren were at home, we could click on a link and a new page full of visual stimuli and colors would appear and then we could call they to see it and even play there (with us or without us)

I imagine something like a "Play Minergeology" page that can be accessed from Mindat and FMF with just a click (just like the easy access to FMF Spanish from here). That page would have to have video games related to minergeology, videos, informal chats among young people, very spectacular images that would not necessarily have to be minerals (they could be volcanic eruptions, solar explosions, images of Mars...), possibilities of encounters and/or dates between people from the same areas
It would have to be something as well as a kind of social net of Geology but designed for very young people.

It turns out that I can think of who could prepare this new page and do it very well. Bryan Swoboda has children, great technical skills and a digital vision of the processing of images and their synchronization with the "social net" mode.
It would be necessary to see if he or/and someone else very prepared could / would prepare that page, and then we would have to finance it collecting fresh money with crowdfunding, donations, or something similar, and when that new page was done, simply prepare in Mindat and here a very visible link in every page that with a single click allowed to surf between the "official" page and that new page "Play Minergeology".

What do you think?