FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[alfredo]

Gail, There's no accounting for collecting tastes, so I can't criticize someone for wanting to collect labels, but in my own case I consider myself just a mineral collector, and the label is merely a medium for conveying some of the information I need to know, like locality (most essential), geological environment and original associations (unfortunately often not present on the label), who dug it up and when (not essential, but nice to know). I need the information, not the label as such. When a specimen has multiple labels from different owners, the information I really want and need is on the oldest label, which I usually keep (unless it's crumbling to dust); the rest are just copies and convey nothing to me other than the name of the later owners of the piece, which is as unimportant to me as knowing the names of the people who run the intermediate servers that forward my e-mails to me. As long as I know the name of the e-mail's author, I'm happy. Same with my minerals.
Cheers,
Alfredo

[mmauthner]

As a museum professional, I find it almost a duty to record the history of specimens. There is so much more to knowing that a particular piece belonged to a particular person than just the fact that he/she owned the specimen.

With the proper database, much metadata about a collection is retrievable. A case in point, Joe Nagel and I were browsing through the UBC collection during the early days of developing our first Windows based database, and by looking at summary lists of sources we discovered that we could actually trace the travels through South America of one of the people who had given his collection. Not possible if that had not been recorded.

Often the style of the label (mine has certainly changed over the last 20 years) it is possible to date a specimen, or knowing about a collector's whereabouts at the time, get a sense of what was available where and from whom.

I cannot think of the number of times I have had inquiries from other collectors or museum professionals, historians that are trying to rebuild the history of collections, localities, or people.

Yes, there seems to be a fad (and I agree with John regarding the exhibit labeling of such) of discussing the bouncing around of specimens. But over all, maintaining ALL information regarding a specimen should not be a choice (it does, however, remain as such, given free will and all) but an obligation as a collector.

Alfredo, you may not care about the history of the pieces in your collection, but the people or institutions that obtain your collection long after you are done with it might (and probably will, ...they might even care that you owned it :-)...).
By throwing away labels, you are doing future collectors and curators a disservice.

Some labels may in today's market add commercial value...great, but they certainly add research value....maybe not always mineralogical, but the hobby is about people and places too.

My two bits...

Cheers,
Mark

[alfredo]

OK, I'm greatly outnumbered on this topic, so this is the point where any sensible soldier who wants to live to fight another battle throws up his arms in surrender. I surrender! ...although I can't believe anyone will want to keep my own labels after I'm gone.

Luckily, fewer than half of my specimens were bought at shows or traded from other collectors. More than half were dug up by myself or purchased from third-world miners who never write a label, so the one and only label is the one I write myself. In those cases where I acquire a recycled specimen, even if I don't appreciate the newer labels myself, I suppose I should save them for those who will after I'm gone.

Now a question for those of you who appreciate labels: What are your feelings about adding new info on old labels? As a fan of rare species and fanatic for analyses, I often find misidentifications on old specimens. It was my custom to cross out the old name on a label and write in my own comments on its ID. Now I wonder whether that is also taboo for label collectors? Should I write on a separate piece of paper and staple it onto the old label?

Cheers,
Alfredo

[GneissWare]

Hi Alfredo,

I for one really like your labels! And have kept them with specimens I purchased from you.

Once I receive a specimen, I generally research the locality in great detail. I also refine the mineralogy if necessary. I put the new info into my catalog software, and make a note in the comments about whatever the original label states about locality or species that my research has refined. I then print out a new label reflecting my research. If I was to sell the specimen, I would give the new owner a printout from the catalog which would provide the new owner with the results of the research.

Having your collection in a database makes it easy to keep track of all one's curatorial work, and makes it simple to pass the info along to the next custodian of the specimen.

Bob

[Jordi Fabre]

Alfredo,

Two years ago I bought from you (or traded, I can't remember) and for my personal collection, a Stolzite from La Tala, Salamanca, Spain. I said to you then (although probably you don't believed) that this Stolzite was just OK and that I already had one better. This other one is a better specimen, no doubt about it, but on my heart I prefer much more your Stolzite, due basically to their labels and especially your label.

Do you remember that I requested to you to write on the back side of your label some note? This Stolzite represents for me a special value, and not for it's rarity or beauty, but mostly for your label and your handwritten notes there.

I like a lot minerals but I'm human and I like the human part of my relationship with minerals. For me, the mineral's labels have this warm part that complete the not human side of the "rocks".

Jordi

[mmauthner]

Alfredo,
Your notes on the back of an old label, or on your new label...not a big deal in my eyes. Your initials on those notes, wherever they are...a most emphatic yes. Even in this day, your initials on a note carry more weight than a lot of dealer's that I know. That, my friend, is a measure of how I, and many others I am sure, see and value your knowledge. This is not just to inflate your ego..but a perfect example of the value of knowing where the info came from and its reliability.

Cheers,
Mark

[alfredo]

Thank you all for your very kind words!
I do see now that the human element in mineralogy is much more important than I had realized. Moving on to craigslist to find a used filing cabinet...

[Gail]

Alfredo, this puts a smile on my face. I respect you so much also, and since I am a fairly new collector, it is nice to see that people can change their concepts of labels as you have.
I know so many dealers who have mailed me labels, as they find them, for pieces I own long after I have purchased them. Even dealers misplace or set aside labels and when they find them it is nice to know they have gone to the trouble of NOT throwing it away, but sending it on instead. Or they have gone to the trouble of having the original owner make a new label for me. ( Such as Frederico Pezzotta when we bought a piece from his personal collection. )
Anyhow, cheers to you for reconsidering!
Mark, you are my hero too!
Cheerio, Gail

[Gail]

Jim and I are here at home putting some of our Tucson minerals out in the display cabinets and we were thrilled to have had 6 pieces in the American Treasures cases on Tucson this year. One of the lovely benefits were the special labels that you were given when the minerals were returned to you. Wendell Wilson made some great labels with nice art and they noted that your piece was part of the special AT displays.
Now to me that label is very special and should go along with the specimens when we are but a memory.
It isn't about who owned the minerals, but about the special display they were a part of. I think that is very relevant to the provenance. What do you all think of the importance of this NON scientific, NON collection owner label idea?

[GneissWare]

Gail,
I agree that these kind of labels are special and add to the value (both monetary and as a piece of history). Congrats on owning 6 pieces of mineralogical history!

I also like the fact that Mineralogical Record provides labels for specimens pictured in the publication.
Bob

[Tracy]

I don't think I'll be scoring any popularoty points for posting my two cents here, but as happy as I am for Gail (and I really am), her posting, and Bob's follow-up, beg the question - should a mineral specimen be regarded as having a higher value just because it won "best in class" or even "best in show" awards?

I know of one seller who keeps details on the provenance of a specimen but does not disclose this information to customers except if specifically asked to. The reasoning behind this is that a specimen should be judged on its own merits and not on who previously owned it. While I can see this policy as doing a huge disservice to archivists and curators, I do see his point. Personally I wouldn't want to spend a lot more money on a specimen because it comes with nice and/or prestigious labels, even though I've said previously that I like having old labels because they tell of the progress of the specimen through time.

I'm inclined to side with John (? - I hope I am not giving credit to the wrong contributor) in that the earliest label is valuable because of the information it provides (e.g., when was it found, where, and by whom), and all the subsequent labels less so. Even though I'm as pleased as the next person to acquire a specimen that was featured in a magazine or comes with a famous label, that's all secondary stuff to me.

There's no straightforward path forward here, everyone derives pleasure from this hobby in his/her own ways. Just carving my walking stick...

A word or two about how this true beginner deals with labels: I keep every label I have with its specimen, and in addition I jot down everything I read in an online description or email (for Internet purchases). To me, any individual's opinion is part of the early learning process. As my knowledge base grows I will delete any of the stuff that is inaccurate or "sales hype," but for now this approach guides my explorations and shapes my interests. If nothing else, so far it's helped me identify sellers who are overly prone to hyperbole. :-)

- Tracy

[Gail]

Nah, not going to bite your head off Tracy, you make valid points. It is a wonderful world of minerals when we are all different in our concepts of how to collect. It would be boring and rather sterile if it were all White or Black, with no grey in between!

I really don't lose sleep over how others collect, and I applaud others for how they deal with all aspects of their collecting. As I have stated over and over again, viva la difference!!!!

I like the fun of knowing who owned my minerals before me, but then again...I like things like autographs. Perhaps it is the sentimental part of me talking again...but since being sentimental is very much a part of who I am, it goes without saying that I would love knowing if James Horner, Pete Bancroft or Benjamin Franklin cherished something as much as I do.

I don't think there is a wrong answer here, do you Tracy?

[GneissWare]

Tracy,

My main point about labels, and additionally, whether a specimen has been pictured in a publication, won an award, or whatnot, is not so much that it increases its monetary worth, but that it adds to the history of the specimen.

Some specimens that you would not take a second look at are neat specimens because they were the subject of a drawing in an old folio, or were studied by John Sinkankas, have an old hand-written label, or were owned by someone you've heard about. These are all historical aspects that help one trace the specimen's journey.

Each specimen is a reflection of one moment in time, namely when it was collected. All the little incremental steps through various people's lives just add to my fascination with minerals.

Bob

[Tracy]

Gail and Bob -

My posts are never intended to be adversarial. I write (and write, and write...OK so I get carried away sometimes) because I wish to learn and discuss. We all appear to be on the same side of the discussion, just with slightly different emphases.

Gail, I've been seriously collecting for only a bit longer than you have, yet I'm nowhere close to your level of expertise. 100% agree that there is no such thing as a wrong answer here. I don't believe that it is possible to go wrong with collecting in any form, as long as it makes the collector happy. And my sincere congratulations to you on your specimens - please post (or just send) a photo of them AND their labels. Having not made it to Tuscon I'd be interested in seeing what they look like!

Bob, if you look at some of my earliest posts you will see that, like you, I enjoy knowing the path a specimen took from being dug out of the ground to arriving in my hands. I like being able to trace a specimen's history back through generations, and in that context I like old labels. For me, though, the scientific curiosity outweighs my interest in pedigree/legacy - that is just my bent though, and not necessarily anyone else's.

Jordi tells me the Forum does not believe in censorship. Half the time I eppry that I'm being a troublemaker, but all I mean to do is generate dialogue about things I don't fully understand - yet...

- Tracy

[GneissWare]

Tracy,

I appreciate the dialog. And, if this discussion gets one person to rethink throwing away labels, then it has been an accomplishment.

Bob