FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Jim]

I find it shocking and disturbing that someone seeking knowledge or guidance is being treated in a dismissive way. Many people have argued how upset they with internet auctions that peddle misleading items (like misidentified minerals or making questionable claims as to their "powers").

Here's an example of someone who is upfront, honest and interested in knowledge, and instead of reinforcing this type of responsible behavior, others are demotivating her.

It makes no sense to argue that FMF members shouldn't support a commercial activity, as the FMF itself supports the commercial activity of a mineral dealer. Nothing wrong with that, but let's be consistent here.

Thanks,

[Tracy]

[Jim]

[Jordi Fabre]

Jim,

We have different visions of FMF, I disagree with your thoughts. Anyway, I respect it, and as usual, I prefer submit the discussion to our two great moderators John and Peter and, as usual, I will follow their advises.

Jim, you can't imagine how much attempts of commercial messages I block every day, if we let the door open, then we will be quickly flooded by sellers or individuals with business objectives. Where is the red line?, in my opinion the DVD's of BlueCap and some similar can be accepted because they tends to promote the mineralogy ( "Thanks for the great promise of entertainment and education" ), but someone looking advises just to make higher her profit, and proposing as a reward to us the use of FMF as a kind of certification for her businness? ( "I turned to a rock and mineral forum for identification from experts through photographs" ) I don't know Jim... again, let's our moderators decide.

Jordi
PS: don't forget that in FMF we are blessed for the world's best experts in mineralogy, sharing with us their thoughts. Maybe it would be better don't take the risk that they become worried about too commercial aspects here and they quit us....

[José Miguel]

It is a complicated and very unusual case.
I really like Patti. She remember me the Tennessee Williams play “The glass menagerie”.
I understand that Jim wants to help her. She is very honest, and don´t occult things and speak with her heart, and she wants knowledge. I understand to the people that wants help her.
But it is true that it is dangerous to do exceptions to the rule of FMF, and I understand very much Jordi.
I feel really the impulse of to help Patti, but my reason says me it is not convenient.
But already there is people that have helped her. Pattie have already some information about her stones.
Patti: yo must to understand what kind of web page is this one.

[Jim]

Under the circumstances, I guess the best guidance to give Patti is for her to seek out a rock shop, seasoned collector or university professor in geology who is local to her so that she may take her finds to be identified.

Thanks,

[John S. White]

Someone suggested to me that if anyone in this group would like to volunteer to continue to help Patti they can provide her with their personal email address. That way everyone is happy!

[Patti3435]

Thank you again for all of your replies and to the people who have spoken in my defense. Thank you also for the opinions of those who have politely disagreed with my motivation for joining this forum, I respect your opinions a well.

I had difficulty sleeping last night. I was awake for quite a while thinking about what was said and trying to understand the point of view of those who thought I did not belong here. I do not take it personally, but I did contemplate a point in my defense.

Years ago, doing research was an incredibly long and arduous process, many times limited only to what someone could find in a library and even then, limited by geographic boundaries as to what amount of information one could find in their local libraries. Today, there is a wealth of knowledge at everyone's fingertips without leaving home. Research is done through the Internet. The amount of information one can find in a mere moment on any given subject is enormous. Purchasing this box of specimens that I knew nothing about didn't give me pause. I knew that through the Internet I could find a message board where I could ask those who were knowledgeable to share their vast knowledge. Of course, I could spend days, months, years, trying to figure it all out myself. But why? Why would I not tell my neighbor what type of glass she has if she should ask. Should I make her research it herself when a mere glance by me can most probably tell what it is (no guarantees implied, as is the same here). I understand this is not a commercial forum open for people to solicit their wares. That was not my intention. My intention was to find the quickest way I could to find out what I bought. In the process, I learned quite a bit and had fun doing my own research once I was pointed in the right direction. It is wrong to NOT share knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge, whether just for fun, or profit, or for the sheer pleasure of just knowing more than you did yesterday. Which I do and am thankful for.
I appreciate your time.
Patti

[Tracy]

I'm glad John suggested having someone contact Patti privately to help with ID if interested. It is a thought which came to me yesterday as well. It might be the best solution for resolving "fuzzy line" cases such as this one. Knowledge exists for sharing, as Patti pointed out, and I felt bad coming done on the other side of this debate. I wish her well in her endeavours.

- Tracy

[Peter]

I congratulate Patti to her honesty!
I also fully understand the other comments.
Yes, we should share knowledge, the most precious is to teach someone who really wants to learn. I am sure Patti has got a little glimpse into mineralogy. Most specimens are in fact pretty easy to identify by the eye, for long time very active collectors, mineralogists, curators whatever it may be.

In my case I gladly help anyone who is interested for their own education. But at the same time since 1985 I have helped many many people, of whome a great many also used the help to profit, at times to a great extent thanks to me sharing knowledge. I do not mind people making money but somewhere there is a limit to what is learning and what is abuse.

One examples: I went on a long trip to a far away country to visit mineral deposits, to find out landowners, find hotels, car rentals etc. That period I had to take holiday without salary: My loss of income was in the order of 6000 Euro and at the same time I had costs at home of 4500 Euro plus 8000 Euro for the trip. The folowing year, I lead a group of 10 people to the same place. I planned everything, car rental hotels, most of mines to visit. Same thing: No income, while all other participants HAD income during the period, some even paid/supproted by their institutions/work etc!!!

I did not ask for a single penny, or help in paying any of my own costs:

Now, I was MOST HAPPY to do this for all friends. Now where is the limit???

Well, two participants , instead of asking me if we could arrange a trip togther here in the future, and have a part of our costs covered, between themselves discussed HOW MUCH MONEY THEY would make on their next trip here when THEY would bring a GROUP and CHARGE MONEY for it, now that they knew all hotels, car rental, roads to hard to find mines, landowners etc.....

To me, that was past the limit, but that is a matter of difference in culture. For some people there are no limits of how to make money! without any conscionse.

For several years I had people calling me 2 hours a day, besides I was giving in principle free evening classes in mineralogy twice a week!!! for 10 years!!!
My wife proposed I install a pay number! But everyone took for granted that I should copy maps, lend them litterature, of which much was never returned, or lost, or damaged..... At a point when my children were young I changed to a secret telephone number and I stopped doing this. Now I gladly help the few ones who are really seirously interested and WHO ALSO on their OWN PUT IN SOME ENERGY!!!

I really do not think people in the long run are grateful for having everything served on a silver plate! 40 years of mineral collecting tells me something else.

Part of the fun, is to seek information, to find old mines, to search for them in the deep forest, in a far away country.... and I really think those not willing to invest some time and money on their own, to share information, could just as well be doing anything!

Jordi, I applaud you for having so much patience in this!!! and I applaud Luiz, for taking his time to share information! I share his view of location for the tourmaline, although the photograph is barely good enough to be certain.

Thank you Patti for your honesty! and Jim, John, Tracy for your inputs.
Last night, I was too tired to answer myself!!!

[Jordi Fabre]

[Patti3435]

Thank you Les. And everyone else.

Peter, I do understand what you are saying, you sound like a good, very kind-hearted person who is motivated by adventure and not money. Believe it or not, I am also like that but I need to feed the kids too. You need to find that happy medium where you are helping people but putting yourself first. I wish I could go on one of those expeditions.

And if nothing else, I got a good education here and have been visiting other sites just looking at rocks and things as I think I have discovered a new passion, who'd have thought! But I guess in reality, minerals are not that far removed from glass.

[John S. White]

Patti it appears that many of us learned something from this exchange. If any of it has nudged you along toward wanting to learn more about minerals, I could not be more pleased. We will always be ready to provide help and advice as long as the favor is not abused, and I don't feel that you are likely to do that.

I haven't the time to explain why I disagree with you that minerals are a lot like glass, but I do strenuously disagree. Perhaps as you learn more about minerals you will see for yourself.

[Antonio Alcaide]

I would like to remark that it is a bit unfair to mention that FMF is related to the Jordi Fabre's commercial activity. It is not true. I do not believe in FMF as a subtle marketing strategy. I don't know Jordi personally nor buy his amazing pieces on the "business side of this site". However his friendship and correct treatment to me is palpable.

In spite of not knowing Jordi, I am sure his passion about minerals led him to become a dealer and afterwards to create this board -not the other way-.

This thread is worth. On it we have had the opportunity to discuss the limits of the board and the requests. Patty's one is actually on the borderline. She provokes sympathies and her attitude is upfront and honest, but I agree with those who thing it is better to help her privately.

Best regards,
Antonio

[Pete Modreski]

I thought I'd add my own few more comments to this--and, to Patti (or others with similar requests), a suggestion of a place to get "future help of this sort" if it should happen to come up again.

Patti, I think we all understand that you weren't just trying to "take advantage of this Forum for commercial gain", in any sense. You found this group on the 'net as a likely helpful place to get some information about something you didn't know much about (i.e., what the minerals were). I can well imagine some one of us from this Forum group doing something similar if we happened to have purchased some box of "collectible objects of art or antiquity" about which we knew very little--glassware, ceramics, whatever--and so searched for and wrote to some online group because we wanted to get some idea of what the things were; yes, even if our intent was just to resell them. Although most of the people on this Mineral Forum are basically "mineral collectors", a good many also, regularly or occasionally, sell their "surplus" specimens too, and some are regular mineral dealers--they just keep the commercial-sales aspect off the Forum. I think it's been made abundantly clear from all the posts, how the intent of this Forum is for mineral collectors to share and exchange information, not to promote their commercial interests--and that's not what you were trying to do. I'm sorry if misunderstandings arose and some reactions seemed overly hostile--perhaps just take it that people were being protective of the "noncommercial" aspect of the Forum.

Anyway, the constructive suggestion, just FYI for the future. An online "Rockhounds" group exists, and this (not that you, Patti, would have had any clear way of distinguishing between the accepted protocols of two such apparently-similar groups) would probably be a perfect place to post such questions as yours. Here are links to info about that group:

Rockhounds@drizzle.com
Subscription Services:
https://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
List Usage Policy:
https://rockhounds.ning.com/page/list-rules

On this group's listserv, someone posting a question like "I bought these rocks at an estate sale and have no idea in the world what they are, can someone please help me?" , would probably receive help and advice without any second thoughts, whether or not you explained that you basically intended to resell them on ebay. Those folks are always very eager to share information with anyone who's interested, for whatever reason, in rocks, just like most everyone from any hobby--after all, spreading knowledge is always good, and it might help generate a new particpant in that avocation.
This "Rockhounds" group does, in fact, permit members to make limited posts (one per month) of commercial nature, though the list guidelines add, "people should not be members solely for the purpose of posting ads". They also maintain a website where images can be posted.

Cheers, best wishes, and I hope, no hard feelings,
Pete Modreski (who also helped for a time as a Forum Moderator here)