FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[vic rzonca]

I think Alfedo makes the point of "site specific" quite well. When I collect in a commercial stone crushing quarry, on a sunday, I consider my actions as preservation of a few pounds of specimens that would otherwise never be available for our edification. Legally, I accept the consequences of my trespass. Morally righteous. Preservationist. Hero. If I go collecting at a friend's specimen quartz site in NY., and if, even having permission, I don't share with him the loot, giving him right to refusal, I feel I have outlaw collected at his site. Morally indefensible. Outlaw. Zero. On a larger scale , the question of who owns the earth and it's riches , is not just moral or legal, I think it's a philosophical one.

[James Catmur]

I have been watching this for a while and wondering when to add my thoughts.

Many years ago I went collecting in a quarry with a group of friends. We had written permission to collect there, which we had gone to a lot of effort to gain and had been there a number of times with permission. On that particular day I managed to break into one of the best ever pockets found in the area and collected about 15 superb specimens that I left on the quarry floor while we stopped for lunch. At that point a dealer who also, I believe, had permission to collect there arrived and he made it clear to me and my friends that if I did not leave the specimens he would use physical force (essentially be would 'beat me up'). Now I am not a man of violence so I backed down and let him take what were some of the best specimens ever found in the area. So some FMF readers may well have some of 'my' specimens in their collections.

As a final act of indignity he 'allowed' me to buy back one of the specimens I had collected so that I could have it in my collection. So how do I feel? Well clearly I am still upset, 16 years later and will never buy anything from this dealer - which may mean that we have both lost out. I still have that specimen that I collected and also bought so it brings back both great and bad memories every time I see it and reminds me never to deal with him again.

But I also understand that these things happen in life. We both had permission to collect there and he was bigger and more willing to use force than me so yes he took my find. He will always be known as 'the thief' between me and a small circle of friends. But I guess it ends there and we have to move on - I know we cannot trust him when I read about his activities as a dealer but you do not! But that is true of many people in life, politics, etc.

James

[BlueCapProductions]

I'm happy to have my faith in this hobby reaffirmed by announcing that all involved parties in this situation have begun negotiations to settle this as peacefully and quickly as possible to the mutual advantage of EVERYONE.

I'm thankful for the fact that names were never mentioned in this post as I felt from the beginning that by doing so, any peaceful negotiations would be impossible.

I think there have been a lot of wonderful posts (James, I'm still shocked by your story) which only shows that this is indeed a very sensitive topic that deserves more open and general discussion.

While many of the details will remain private, I hope that our final resolution can begin the process of establishing new levels of expectations and actions when it comes to similar situations.

I especially want to thank Jordi Fabre, Peter Megaw and John White for keeping this discussion on track and for allowing us all to voice our thoughts.

I look forward to my next post where I will, hopefully, be able to announce that all has been settled and hands have been shaken.

[Diane Rose]

Bryan, sounds like everything will work out and I'm glad for your Dad. My only comment to all these posts is that this reminds me of the stories told of the gold mining days of the past when men were murdewred to steal claims. It all comes down to greed. My personal opinion is that what goes around, comes around., or as the saying goes: no bad deed goes unpunished. We may never see the result, but the culprits will.

[LBradley]

Bryan,

Thanks very much for this topic. I'm new to this forum and to mineral collecting in general. In fact, I became interested after buying vacation property on which the old Dodge Mine is located, in Edwards, NY.

However the problem of "highgrading" has soured me on the mineral world. We have people constantly on our property, overturning rocks and making a total mess of the woods that contain the mine. We've run into strangers in our woods who act as if it is their land and refuse to leave. We've had to call the local sheriff because of the destruction of the property and the disturbance of having strangers in the woods night and day. Since then, we've posted the property around the mine with many,many posted signs. There is no mistaking that this is posted land. Still, every time we return to our property it is more dug up, moss stripped off rocks, trees overturned and torn out, mud everywhere...Who knows where this will end? It's so sad because my Dad used to hunt rocks on this land and had fond memories of it. He never, never trashed the site for his hobby.

We gave permission to one mineral collector who seemed interested in the site for study purposes and was very careful in collecting to not destroy the property. Now, we are NOT giving permission to anyone anymore there is so much destruction and so many people who just walk over our fencing, pull off our signs and go ahead digging. The area has restrictive covenants as vacation property surrounding a lake with homeowners association and now we are getting grief about the ugly look of the mine area. It fronts on the main road. However, we can't seem to get collectors to stop digging.

I saw some pyramidal crystals being sold online through a popular mineral site. They were taken from our land in 2008 and 2009. No attempt was ever made by the seller to share any of the profits.

We've owned the property since 2003, and any crystals being sold from the Dodge Mine in Edwards, NY since that date are being sold illegally.

We started out wanting to learn more about mineral collecting in general, wanted to get to know collectors and were willing to allow collecting on our property, but not now! The utter lack of respect for the land, and our rights as landowners, is appalling and sad.

Anyway, thanks again for posting this topic. I can see there are ethical mineral collectors out there and that helps renew my interest.

[Peter]

So sorry to hear about your bad experience with collectors! To me the best approach is to haver one or more spots where collectors can collect and a small dump where people can come and study the material, not the least people who know nothing about minerals or geology! I hope you will decide to go to some local mineralshow or to Tucson in february (or Denver show now in September) to meet soem real colelctors who ask for permission, work with the landowners, are sharing their finds and knowledge with you, and only bring a piece or two for their own collection and hopefully also some research, and get back to you with results and explain why these are interesting etc!
Best of luck and I hope your interest develop to a deep appreciation and love!
Peter

[lluis]

Dear all

What I read makes me sad.
This is one of the maybe reasons why Mount Saint Hilaire is closed now to collecting.

I am still bewondered by the work collectors/owners in Twin Creeks orpiment.
May that was accopmplished in many more places.

Collectors would be very pleased, and owners maybe would be happy to know that some specimens have been preserved, making all sides happy.

No respect of law just makes our hobby more closed (less places to collect)
And I am a two left handed individual that has only found a decent (well, not that ugly) quartz crystal in his garden.

And that enjoyed the cooperation of the former owners of Cantera Berta in Catalonia (but found nothing, as usually....)

Sad times we are living...

With best wishes

Lluís

[vic rzonca]

What is the nature of collecting minerals? I would say it comes from the need to enhance our chance of survival. "I have killed my brother with this rock, I win!". On a less ridiculous note, this gets to John White's founding thoughts, to paraphrase : " not enough mineralogy in collecting." What can we do, let the need for large scale plunder to supply our needs, rob us of self knowledge, I think not . Do I encourage stealing from my brother for my gain, of course not. But do we stand by and let the riches go past us without inspection, there must be a middle ground, I"d love to see it. Which brings me to a more salient point, how does one become certified to work underground and how does one convince the local crushed stone quarry that there may be something of mineralogical interest there.(Beyond my million dollar contractors bond.)

[BlueCapProductions]

After several months of peaceful negotiations and sit-down talks, all parties involved in this situation have come to a mutually agreeable resolution whereby, in exchange for one of the top specimens from this pocket, my father has relinquished all claims to the other specimens and has absolved all parties of any wrong doings. Ultimately, given a situation like this, I am very pleased that we were able to talk openly about the situation, as calm rational adults, and find a solution that could accomplish all of our goals of finally putting this situation behind us all.

This serves to reaffirm our faith in dealing with unfortunate circumstances in this hobby to the mutual satisfaction of all.

[BlueCapProductions]

Oh, and I'm VERY pleased to say that everyone worked together to enable me to pick up the specimen today - November 30, 2011.

I make note of this because today is my father's 94th birthday and I am EXTREMELY grateful to be able to present him with this specimen as his birthday present.

[Gail]

I am so pleased it all went well and everyone was respectful! Happy Birthday to your wonderful Dad!

[robynahawk]

I am so glad to hear that this was settled amicably and you seem very pleased with the outcome.

Give your Dad a big Happy Birthday hug!

Robyn

[Peter]

Big Happy Birthday to your father Bryan!!!