We use cookies to show content based on your preferences. If you continue to browse you accept their use and installation. More information. >


FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board
The place to share your mineralogical experiences


Spanish message board






Newest topics and users posts
04 May-16:39:42 Brochantite from milpillas mine, mexico / mvm (minerals - virtual museum) collection (Jordi Fabre)
03 May-23:23:09 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
03 May-17:21:53 Re: martin danovski minerals collection (Jordi Fabre)
03 May-11:16:02 Re: ghost dendrite (Riccardo Modanesi)
03 May-05:51:59 Re: ghost dendrite (James Catmur)
03 May-04:17:02 Re: ghost dendrite (Marco Campos-venuti)
03 May-01:35:42 Re: martin danovski minerals collection (Danovskim)
02 May-18:34:43 Re: ghost dendrite (Pete Richards)
02 May-18:22:43 Re: ghost dendrite (Bob Carnein)
02 May-17:55:30 Re: ghost dendrite (Matt_zukowski)
02 May-16:54:10 Re: the mizunaka collection - beryl (Am Mizunaka)
02 May-15:51:06 Wavellite from dug hill, usa / mvm (minerals - virtual museum) collection (Jordi Fabre)
02 May-12:39:56 Re: the mizunaka collection (Philippe Durand)
02 May-02:56:06 Re: the mizunaka collection (Volkmar Stingl)
02 May-02:23:53 Re: ghost dendrite (Roy Starkey)
02 May-02:20:14 Ghost dendrite (Marco Campos-venuti)
02 May-01:22:19 The mizunaka collection - beryl (Am Mizunaka)
01 May-14:15:03 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
01 May-13:53:34 Re: collection of firmo espinar (Firmo Espinar)
01 May-09:04:18 Re: collection of michael shaw (Michael Shaw)
29 Apr-22:26:22 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
29 Apr-17:56:49 The mizunaka collection - agate (Am Mizunaka)
29 Apr-16:45:46 Rutile from boiling springs, usa / mvm (minerals - virtual museum) collection (Jordi Fabre)
29 Apr-11:50:01 Re: libyan desert glass structure (Craig Hagstrom)
29 Apr-08:23:04 Re: collection of michael shaw (Michael Shaw)

For lists of newest topics and postings click here


RSS RSS

View unanswered posts

Why and how to register

Index Index
 FAQFAQ RegisterRegister  Log inLog in
 {Forgotten your password?}Forgotten your password?  

Like
120995


The time now is May 05, 2025 00:01

Search for a textSearch for a text   

A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
The information provided within this Forum about localities is only given to allow reference to them. Any visit to any of the localities requires you to obtain full permission and relevant information prior to your visit. FMF is strictly against any illicit activities related to collecting minerals.
About cyclic twinning - (5)
  Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
  Index -> Featured Columns of FMF
Like
103


View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

Pete Richards
Site Admin



Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 842
Location: Northeast Ohio


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 20, 2012 14:48    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

mihailovici79 wrote:
Is this an example of cyclic twinning?


Well, it's certainly an example of repeated twinning involving three individuals. I probably would not disagree with calling it cyclic twinning, though some probably would because it does not make a complete cycle (hexagonal in this case).

_________________
Collecting and studying crystals with interesting habits, twinning, and epitaxy
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

alfredo
Site Admin



Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 1011


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 20, 2012 15:15    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

Many thanks to Peter for taking the time to explain these things! Much appreciated by those like myself who were weak in crystallography and have much to brush up on.

I was told that these amesite crystals represent "6-fold sector twinning". Is that a type of "cyclic twin"? (Thanks to the photographer, Saul Krotki.)

On another note, I think that many complex and multiple Japan-law twin quartzes disprove the notion that twinning had to start at the onset of crystal growth. When one sees Japan-law twins whose members are very different in size, with the smaller one jutting out halfway up the prism of its larger partner, or even multiple "juniors" at different positions on a larger member, it's hard to see how this could have all formed at the initiation of growth.



amesite.jpg
 Description:
Amesite-2H
Cerro Sapo, Cochabamba, Bolivia
xl terminations <0.2mm wide
 Viewed:  70778 Time(s)

amesite.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 5023
Location: Barcelona


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 20, 2012 15:51    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

Pete Richards wrote:
...though some probably would because it does not make a complete cycle (hexagonal in this case)

Here you have an example of a complete cycle.

Great thread by the way!



Rutile - Magnet Cove_Hot Springs County_Arkansas_USA.jpg
 Description:
Rutile (cyclic twinning)
Magnet Cove, Hot Spring County, Arkansas, USA
Specimen size: 2.6 × 2.4 × 2.9 cm.
Former collection of Folch duplicates, currently in the John S. White collection
 Viewed:  70885 Time(s)

Rutile - Magnet Cove_Hot Springs County_Arkansas_USA.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
2
   

Peter Farquhar
Site Admin



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Virginia


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 20, 2012 18:16    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

As my first post on FMF, I’d like to join the discussion about rutile crystals and cyclic twinning.

“Cyclic twinning” is typically defined as “the repeated twinning of three or more individual crystals according to the same twin law, but with the twin axes not parallel.” (e.g., see mindat glossary and other sources). On the other hand, such repeated twinning is called “polysynthetic” if the twinning axes are parallel.

It may seem surprising, but loop closure is not a characteristic for cyclic twinning under this definition. While Ford points out in Dana’s Textbook, this “repetition of twinning tends to produce circular forms” under certain conditions, he also acknowledges the zig-zag shaped twins from “repeated geniculations.”

Therefore, the category of “cyclic twins” for rutile includes both complete (closed-looped) and incomplete (open-loop) sixlings, eightlings, and other n-sided specimens, as well as the (non-loop) geniculated crystals that zig and zag in successive directions.

Challenge #1: Cyclic twinning is common in rutile, but polysynthetic twinning is rather uncommon in rutile. Here is an example of both types in one specimen. The Brazilian rutile specimen below illustrates both cyclic twinning (a partial sixling) and polysynthetic twinning (a doublet). Considering the earlier discussion in this thread, how did this crystal form?

Challenge #2: Magnet Cove Arkansas has produced some wonderful rutile eightlings. Below is a specimen shows an eightling that is part of a larger eightling. What do you call this cyclic twinned rutile? How did this crystal form?

Please let me know if you’d like to see more challenges.

Peter Farquhar
Claremont, California
USA



PolyCyclic.jpg
 Description:
Rutile
Pirenopolis, Goias, Brazil
4.3 x 4.5 x 4.0 cm
Rutile with both cyclic and polysynthetic twinning (PF-3349)
 Viewed:  70735 Time(s)

PolyCyclic.jpg



DoubleEight.jpg
 Description:
Rutile
Magnet Cove, Hot Spring Co., Arkansas, USA
3.0 x 2.3 x 1.3 cm
Rutile eightling within eightling (PF-3208).
 Viewed:  70750 Time(s)

DoubleEight.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
3
   

Dean Allum




Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Posts: 17
Location: Colorado

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 20, 2012 23:56    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

Pete Richards wrote:
Dean Allum wrote:
Pete,
Your competing poly-crystals theory for cyclic twinning is elegant!

Wouldn't there be some remaining evidence of the nucleation site at the central vertex which you could view with a TEM of the thin section?

-Dean Allum


Thanks!

There might be some evidence of the nucleation site, though the nucleus might be too small to see except with something like TEM. If the crystal is not highly transparent, finding the nucleation site would be quite a challenge - there's no guarantee it would be in the physical center of the twin!


Which is why you would use the thousands of small transparent sixlings that are probably abundant in the rutile sands which are a commercial product. There is now an analytical technique called Focused Ion Beam (FIB) which is capable of slowly etching material with about 100 atom accuracy. It is technically possible to verify your theory.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Peter Farquhar
Site Admin



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Virginia


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 22, 2012 19:58    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

The rutile sixling from Atglen, Pennsylvania shown below looks almost identical to the purple 3-D drawing that Pete Richards posted earlier.

Peter Farquhar
Claremont, California
USA



RutileSixling.jpg
 Description:
Rutile
Atglen, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, USA
2.1 x 2.1 x1.5 cm
A complete rutile sixling from Pennsylvania (PF-3147).
 Viewed:  41108 Time(s)

RutileSixling.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
3
   

Pete Richards
Site Admin



Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 842
Location: Northeast Ohio


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 22, 2012 20:57    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

RutileFox wrote:
The rutile sixling from Atglen, Pennsylvania shown below looks almost identical to the purple 3-D drawing that Pete Richards posted earlier.


Wow! That's amazing! I've never seen a real rutile twin that was so close to the theoretical morphology. Thanks for posting it. (I covet it, but will have to settle for the image.)

_________________
Collecting and studying crystals with interesting habits, twinning, and epitaxy
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

gemlover




Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Easley, SC


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 22, 2012 23:35    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

Great and beautiful specimen. And from Atglen, I lived in both Chester and Lancaster counties in that area.

John

_________________
John
John Atwell Rasmussen, Ph.D.. AJP
Geologist and Gemologist
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Peter Farquhar
Site Admin



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Virginia


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 25, 2012 19:14    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

Another perspective on cyclic twinning in rutiles:

The photographic plate below is from Louis Pope Gratacap’s famous 1912 book, "A Popular Guide to Minerals." The black-and-white plate nicely illustrates different forms of cyclic twinning with three Pennsylvania rutile specimens. Gratacap selected these rutiles from the Clarence S. Bement collection in the American Museum of Natural History, where Gratacap served as the Curator of Mineralogy in the early 1900s.

In 1907, Gratacap used this same plate for another purpose in a short article he published on mineral photography in the "American Annual of Photography 1908." Gratacap was experimenting at the time with different lighting techniques and camera lens, and chose these rutile specimens to illustrate the many challenges in photographing cyclic twins. But little has changed more than a century later. Wendell Wilson recently commented that rutiles “are one of those minerals that are very difficult to photograph, and the worst of the lot are the cyclic twins …” (Axis, 2005).

With these warnings in mind, I tried to recapture in the 2012 color image shown below the same Parkesburg rutile specimen figured on the right side of Gratacap’s 1907 plate. A side-by-side comparison of these two images reveals the complex challenges in portraying the “geniculated oscillations” that Gratacap wrestled with over a century ago.

Peter Farquhar
Claremont, California
USA



Gratacap Plate - 1907.jpg
 Description:
Rutiles
Parkesburg, Chester County, Pennsylvania USA
L. P. Gratacap photo of three Clarence S. Bement rutile specimens from the American Museum of Natural History in New York City (1907)
 Viewed:  40854 Time(s)

Gratacap Plate - 1907.jpg



RutileParkesburg(PF-1781).jpg
 Description:
Rutile
Parkesburg, Chester County, Pennsylvania USA
5.0 x 3.4 x 2.8 cm
Comparison of the same cyclic twinned rutile specimen (PF-1781 ) as photographed in 1907 vs. 2012.
 Viewed:  40844 Time(s)

RutileParkesburg(PF-1781).jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

John Jaszczak




Joined: 05 Oct 2010
Posts: 300
Location: Hancock, MI


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Aug 27, 2012 17:57    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

Nicely done!
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Peter Farquhar
Site Admin



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Virginia


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 18, 2012 17:24    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

Tracy wrote:
I recently saw an image of a rutile specimen described as a cyclic twin, however the specimen wasn't round - rather, it looked like a series of steps or a "w" with a few extra bends (vvv-like). Was this an accurate description? I would expect a cyclic twin to be cyclic (= ring-shaped), but was wondering what are the criteria?

... The specimen I saw has six distinct faces, appears to be planar or nearly so, and originates from Diamantina.

- Tracy


After a lengthy search, I found a specimen that fits Tracy’s description at the beginning of this thread. With the kind permission of the photographer, I’m able to post images of this rutile specimen from Diamantina, Brazil on FMF. (Tracy, is this the image you saw?)

I’m not sure we answered Tracy’s original question correctly, so I’d like to reopen the discussion on this thread using this image.

The question for the Forum is how would you describe the twinning exhibited by this rutile specimen below? In particular, does it meet the criteria discussed for a cyclic twin?

I’d describe this specimen as a group of intergrown V-twins of rutile, but not a cyclic twinned rutile. One reason is that this rutile does not appear to exhibit repeated twinning. I’d really like to know what others think about this interesting puzzle.

Peter Farquhar
Claremont, California
USA



RutileDiamantina1.jpg
 Description:
Rutile (front view)
Diamantina, Brazil
1.5 x 0.5 x 0.4 cm
Photo by Heliodor; used with permission.
 Viewed:  40686 Time(s)

RutileDiamantina1.jpg



RutileDiamantina2.jpg
 Description:
Rutile (rear view)
Diamantina, Brazil
1.5 x 0.5 x 0.4 cm
Photo by Heliodor; used with permission.
 Viewed:  40449 Time(s)

RutileDiamantina2.jpg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
2
   

Tracy




Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 551
Location: Toronto


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 19, 2012 06:47    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

RutileFox wrote:
Tracy wrote:
I recently saw an image of a rutile specimen described as a cyclic twin, however the specimen wasn't round - rather, it looked like a series of steps or a "w" with a few extra bends (vvv-like). Was this an accurate description? I would expect a cyclic twin to be cyclic (= ring-shaped), but was wondering what are the criteria?

... The specimen I saw has six distinct faces, appears to be planar or nearly so, and originates from Diamantina.

- Tracy


After a lengthy search, I found a specimen that fits Tracy’s description at the beginning of this thread. With the kind permission of the photographer, I’m able to post images of this rutile specimen from Diamantina, Brazil on FMF. (Tracy, is this the image you saw?)



Peter, that's the one! - you beat me by a day, I was about to try my hand at photographing it since it's now mine. :-)

Looking at all the illustrations provided, and reading through the comments, I still don't have a clear answer. And now Peter has added photos. Is this specimen a cyclic twin?

(I'm surprised to read that rutile doesn't undergo cyclic twinning, this seems inconsistent with other posts and images)

- Tracy

_________________
"Wisdom begins in wonder" - Socrates
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

Tracy




Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 551
Location: Toronto


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 20, 2012 06:54    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

Um...so that's one vote for yes, and one vote for no? I'm really confused.

- Tracy

_________________
"Wisdom begins in wonder" - Socrates
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Pete Richards
Site Admin



Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 842
Location: Northeast Ohio


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 20, 2012 10:37    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

RutileFox wrote:
The question for the Forum is how would you describe the twinning exhibited by this rutile specimen below? In particular, does it meet the criteria discussed for a cyclic twin?

A very interesting specimen!

I would not call it a cyclic twin, because in my opinion a zig-zag twin shows repeated but not cyclic twinning. But this crystal seems to hide some other secrets, revealed by the second photo. It appears to show that this is actually at least three and probably four separate crystals, two (or maybe three) of them v-twins, as Peter said. These individual crystals/twins have grown into each other as they got larger.

If this is correct, how did they manage to assume parallel orientations?!!! I like to think that these kinds of twins - and many sagenite arrays - are actually examples of epitaxy (probably on ilmenite or hematite) in which the host weathered away, perhaps before the rutile stopped growing. I have examples of rutiile pseudomorphs after ilmenite(?) from Mont Saint-Hilaire which are almost perfect hexagonal plates, but with microtextures that demonstrate that they are aggregates of oriented crystals. SEM/EDS shows that they contain only titanium and oxygen - no iron!



Rutile sagenite 2.jpg
 Description:
Rutile (sagenite)
Erdgestollen Obergesteln, Goms, Wallis, Switzerland
3 cm group
Naturhistorisches Museum Basel specimen, Erich Offermann photograph
 Viewed:  40301 Time(s)

Rutile sagenite 2.jpg



Rutile sagenite 3.jpg
 Description:
Rutile (sagenite)
Lamme, Ernen, Binntal, Wallis, Switzerland
Field of view 28 mm tall
Naturhistorisches Museum Basel specimen, Erich Offermann photograph
 Viewed:  40288 Time(s)

Rutile sagenite 3.jpg



Rutile_Ilmenite 3c.jpg
 Description:
Rutile after ilmenite(?)
Poudrette Quarry, Mont Saint-Hilaire, Quebec, Canada
0.5 mm crystal
 Viewed:  40258 Time(s)

Rutile_Ilmenite 3c.jpg



Rutile_Ilmenite 3b.jpg
 Description:
Rutile after ilmenite(?)
Poudrette Quarry, Mont Saint-Hilaire, Quebec, Canada
 Viewed:  40269 Time(s)

Rutile_Ilmenite 3b.jpg



_________________
Collecting and studying crystals with interesting habits, twinning, and epitaxy
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
2
   

Tracy




Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 551
Location: Toronto


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Sep 20, 2012 11:25    Post subject: Re: About cyclic twinning - (5)  

Would other photo angles be helpful? I should have time this weekend.

Thanks Pete and Peter! The suggestion of intergrown v-twins makes sense to me.

[Puzzles make me happy. :-)]

- Tracy

_________________
"Wisdom begins in wonder" - Socrates
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   
Display posts from previous:   
   Index -> Featured Columns of FMF   All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 2 of 11
  Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next  

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


All pictures, text, design © Forum FMF 2006-2025


Powered by FMF