FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Jolyon Ralph]

It's confidential because I simply don't go about publishing things like this online unless I'm sure it's OK with the people who told me.

I am not saying this lab was responsible for irradiating the many crystals sold as heliodor - it's possible, but it's also possible they were done elsewhere and this lab simply irradiated gem rough.

But of course, one person's gem rough is another person's crystal without matrix. Perhaps someone else saw them, bought them, and somehow this little story was invented

Jolyon

[Jim]

John White wrote: "So why after about 25 years is the name of the person who commissioned the lab and/or the name of the lab still confidential?"

This information would be good to know, but again, I find this question reversed... The question might be better worded as, "Why after 25 years is the mineral community still waiting to be shown the exact location of the mine and the crystals in situ so that the claims about these beryls can be verified once and for all?"

Cheers,

Jim

[lluis]

Good evening.

Near where I live in Spain, there is an enterprise that has a source of gamma rays (Co60).
They rent for use it, and is not expensive at all.

Then, anyone could do so in another of such facilities...

With best wishes

Lluís

[John S. White]

Okay, I think we have beaten this subject to death. I would like to make it clear that I am quite prepared to believe that these crystals have been treated in some fashion, and I am quite prepared to believe that they probably do not originate in Tajikistan. Sadly, we may never know who treated them or where they were actually found.

[lluis]

Dear Mr. Sampson White, forum

Well, for what I have heard, if you assist to Tucson show, then you could very probably know the identity of the one who charged for treatement. Maybe some walk, but you will find him easierly.

Just to be added that many material, as have been said, is treated routinely as rough for jewellery. But that is another league and is accepted, if disclosed.

With best wishes

Lluís

[Mike Wood]

Having read this post with increasing fascination over the past few days, a suggestion popped into my head that I cannot ignore any longer...(Hope Jordi doesn't mind me using the 'M' word !).
How about the 3rd Mindat conference to be held in Dushanbe, Tadjikistan ? Field trips to the Pamirs etc. The great heliodor mystery could be wrapped up once and for all !

Mike

[Jim]

[bob kerr]

ok - here is difinitive proof of authenticity. how can the smithsonian be wrong!!??

bob

https://mineralsciences.si.edu/collections/newacquisitions/2007/beryl07.htm
(link normalized by FMF)

to get to this link you need to replace the two "DOT"s with "."s

[lluis]

Hi, Bob

Well, for one side, it is a gift from 2007.

Some rain has fall from then.

And from the other side, a museum could fooled as the rest of mortals.

Some examples, not in minerals, but in coins

British Museum accepted as legit the Utmanzai forgeries (tha, with this name, you could imagine that are forgeries...)

British Museum was fooled by the Geneva forgeries (again, forgeries).
This time they were only convinced because a gentleman gofted them some more forgeries (if legit, that would cost some Mio Dollars...), and gave them details of forger.
That, by the way, is still not named due to, seems, legal reason...

If you google Geneva forgeries you could find the book.
An interesting reading...

With best wishes

Lluís

[John S. White]

The Smithsonian is often wrong. It mistakenly has the image of being infallible, but sadly this is inaccurate.

[bob kerr]

yah, i agree john. you can't possibly expect 100% accuracy. i still like these specimens though!!

also - does anyone know if the yellow in "natural" heliodor is caused by radiation similar to how "natural" smokey quartz is colored?

thanks,
bob

[lluis]

As far as I have read, at least some of the natural heliodors have color produced/enhanced by natural radiation.
Traces of Iron 3+ are also requiered

Also read that some natural heliodors are slightly radioactive due to traces of uranium.

Rio Tinto Mine in Rössing was a source for such.

With best wishes

Lluís

[lluis]

Good evening, List

Well, not exactly the heliodors, but I found this article on red andesines that is very interesting.
And yes, this one gives names, treatement, localities and so.

I find it extremely interesting

https://www.jewelcutter.com/articles/andesine_scam.htm
(link normalized by FMF)

Please, not also that the autor makes very clear that to treat a specimen is not a fault, that what is a fault is not to diclose it to customer.

With best wishes

Lluís

[John S. White]

I realize that the doubters have concluded that the story is over. In their minds the heliodor “from Tajikistan” is not from Tajikistan and the color of the heliodor has been artificially created. In 15 or so years I have not been able to discover exactly where these crystals are from nor who treated them, if they indeed have been treated, but I was willing to concede that these crystals probably have been misrepresented in some way. However, at this past Denver show I had an opportunity to speak with Andrew Akers of Gem World of California, Inc. He had with him perhaps as many as 50 heliodors “from Tajikistan,” and he swore that the locality is correct, they come from pegmatites some 17,000 to 19,000 feet high in the Tajikistan mountains, pegmatites that are virtually inaccessible to all but the people who mine them. He stated that his inventory had been mined about three years ago and while the heliodors did resemble those I had seen long ago, virtually all of Akers’ pieces were in matrix. This is very different from what I saw when “Tajikistan” heliodors first appeared. At that time nearly all of them were just crystals with no matrix. Matrix pieces were quite rare.

In this material the matrix consists of feldspar, muscovite and quartz. One piece, in particular, caught my eye (see attached photos). On one side was a typical yellow heliodor, but when you turned it over there was a blue aqua embedded in the matrix. This is very significant. It means that the sample was not treated to create the heliodor using gamma radiation. If it had been, the blue aqua would have turned yellow as well. Not only that, the quartz would have turned black and the feldspar, no doubt, would have lost its luster. None of this had occurred. Akers also had a specimen of heliodor with quartz that he had irradiated at the University of Missouri (see attached photo). With this treatment the quartz crystals became black. All of this suggests quite powerfully that the heliodor color is natural. Akers’ strong assertions also make one suspect that the source of this material is actually Tajikistan. After all, Tajikistan is a rugged country with mountains that rise to 24,000 feet. Ninety-three percent of the country is mountainous, so it is easy to believe that somewhere in those mountains exists a string of pegmatites that have produced these remarkable heliodors.

So in my mind the mystery remains unresolved, but I am very much open to the possibility that these crystals are indeed from Tajikistan and the color is completely natural.

[Jolyon Ralph]

Are you sure that beryl requires the same level of irradiation as quartz to change color?

Are you sure that the beam cannot be targetted in some way, or quartz etc shielded to prevent irradiation?

How do we know this isn't a natural heliodor from, for example, Brazil, thrown in to confuse us?

You can't draw any scientific conclusions from this without a LOT more research. Currently the regional experts all tell me it's fake. Certainly I'd take their opinions over a dealer who aims to profit from selling the stuff.

As Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - and there isn't any here.

Jolyon