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Elise
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
Posts: 243
Location: New York State
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 14:40 Post subject: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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Jordi admonished me for not being more active on the FMF lately, so I thought I would start a new thread on one of my favorite topics, Quartz, Natural and Synthetic. There were so many amazing displays at the 2015 TGMS, especially the cases devoted to the theme of quartz. Earlier in the previous week I had purchased several synthetic quartz specimens for my study collection and was later delighted to see the display case devoted to the same crystals! The exhibitors were Vlad and Mila Klipov, Quartz Grown by R&D XTALS, Inc, Cleveland, Ohio. Their display was very informative and also drew attention to the use of the technology to repair broken specimens -- not a new thing, but the first I've been able to see in person which was just great! And a note in the case announced that there is to be an article published in Rocks & Minerals regarding these specimens - I can't wait!
Matt already called attention to this in the Tucson Show thread; these are links to the discussion which ensued and which I hope we might continue with here (also don't miss his images of the other quartz displays and of course The Party pictures):
https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=43931&highlight=#43931
and follow-up from Jamison Brizendine:
https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=43944&highlight=#43944
and https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=43952&highlight=#43952
I wanted to start this thread with a group of 3 specimens which I bought from the daughter of Luiz Menezes - I was so happy to find some nice specimens to remember him by. They will show some contrast to the synthetic quartz specimens - I find both equally collectible and educational.
Cheers!
Elise
Mineral: | Quartz |
Locality: | Gouveia, Minas Gerais, Brazil | |
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Dimensions: | L-R: 50mm x 60mm; 80mm x 70mm; 45mm x 60mm |
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_________________ Elise Skalwold |
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Elise
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
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Location: New York State
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 14:44 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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This is one of the synthetic quartz clusters which I was very happy to acquire (views of both sides)
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Hydrothermally Grown Synthetic Quartz Cluster 140mm x 90 mm R&D XTALS, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio |
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Hydrothermally Grown Synthetic Quartz Cluster 140mm x 90 mm R&D XTALS, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio |
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Elise
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
Posts: 243
Location: New York State
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 14:50 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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The small crystal resting in the well of a water-worn rock is a Japan-law twin synthetic quartz -- I showed it to John S. White and he commented, but I can't quote - maybe some doubt? I include a picture of the twinned specimens in the display case and a natural Japan-law twin which I purchased from our Alfredo Petrov. Note the green on the large specimen in the display - I would have liked to acquire one of these, but could not afford to.
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Hydrothermally Grown Synthetic Quartz (TGMS Display Case) R&D XTALS, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio |
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Natural Quartz Japan-law Twin 15mm x 15mm Nagasaki, Narushima Island, Japan Alfredo Petrov |
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Hydrothermally Grown Synthetic Quartz Japan-law Twin 48mm x 40 mm R&D XTALS, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio |
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_________________ Elise Skalwold |
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Elise
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
Posts: 243
Location: New York State
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 14:53 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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This is a single crystal synthetic quartz showing Dauphiné Law twinning. Note the wire and seed plate, as well as the c face at top of crystal.
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Hydrothermally Grown Synthetic Quartz Single crystal with Dauphiné Law twinning; detail (note cobbled C face at top, seed plate and wire) 90mm x 60mm R&D XTALS, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio |
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Hydrothermally Grown Synthetic Quartz Single crystal with Dauphiné Law twinning; detail (note cobbled C face at top, seed plate and wire) R&D XTALS, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio |
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_________________ Elise Skalwold |
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Elise
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
Posts: 243
Location: New York State
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 14:58 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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These "sea urchin" clusters really created quite a stir - they are beautiful! This one has two second generation growth large single crystals. I understand that these take many months to grow. I can't wait to hear more about the growth process - I love quartz in any form - natural or synthetic, it's all amazing!
Cheers!
Elise
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Hydrothermally Grown Synthetic Quartz Two generations of growth – first “sea-urchin” then two large crystals 90mm x 60mm R&D XTALS, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio |
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_________________ Elise Skalwold |
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Elise
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
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Location: New York State
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 15:05 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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One last image from the display - this is the repaired amethyst cluster. I find the process very, very interesting to finally see.
Again, see an in-depth explanation from Jamison Brizendine here:
https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=43944&highlight=#43944
and a quote from later posting in that thread:
Jamison Brizendine wrote: |
Ironically, the synthetic quartz industry itself has been on the rapid decline for quite sometime. Synthetic quartz from what I understand is a niche market and only used in some optical instruments. When cheaper options become available, it furthers pushes the industry into obsolescence. When this happens there will be no more synthetic quartz, because it costs a lot of money and time for these laboratories to maintain the autoclaves. I wonder if these clusters could breathe new life into an industry that is becoming more obsolete by the day.
In terms of telling the other differences between synthetic and natural quartz, if you broke a synthetic crystal quartz and compared it to a natural one of the same size and color, you really can't tell the difference. Some of the quartz clusters might have some iron oxide and microscopic inclusions of acmite from the steel. |
Thank you Jamison for sharing those insights!
Cheers,
Elise
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Damaged Amethyst Quartz, regrown tips via hydrothermal process R&D XTALS, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio 2015 TGMS Display |
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Damaged Amethyst Quartz, regrown tips via hydrothermal process R&D XTALS, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio 2015 TGMS Display |
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_________________ Elise Skalwold |
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Don Lum
Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 2869
Location: Arkansas
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 15:11 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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Elise,
These are fascinating crystals. Thanks for posting.
I enjoyed our visits in Tucson.
Don
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Jesse Fisher
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 629
Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 15:56 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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I, too, ran across Vlad (R&D XTALS) and was fascinated with some of the things he was able to grow. Here is a photo of a twinned quartz that I picked up (about 4 cm across). Not a Japan-Law, but at a more acute angle, perhaps on the rhombohedron. He said he had only seen this once or twice in nature. I'm not an expert on twinning in quartz, so perhaps others can say more about this.
I was also impressed by the quartz cluster that had a re-grown tip. A lot of people seemed fearful that this will usher in a new level of fakery in the mineral specimen trade. I think the time and expense involved in doing something like this would place serious limits on it becoming a widespread practice, however.
Cheers,
Jesse
Mineral: | quartz (synthetic) |
Dimensions: | 4 cm |
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Elise
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 16:07 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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Jesse - what a stunning photograph! I didn't have much time to image the specimens this afternoon, but even so could quickly tell it was going to take a lot of reflectors and coaxing of the light to do well -- and a lot more time. You nailed it.
I was a bit perplexed by all the comments about "fakery" etc - I spent a lot of time at the display and heard similar fears, also expressed by others later. I have several specimens produced 40-50 years ago in Russia - this is nothing new. These new specimens and the repaired crystal are just a gorgeous examples of a fascinating technology.
Cheers!
Elise
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Jesse Fisher
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 16:20 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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Actually, I think the most time-consuming part of the process was getting the specimen out of the plastic capsule it was mounted in without damage. The specimen cooperated nicely for the photo with only a few reflectors.
I also got one of those "sea urchin" clusters but am afraid of removing it for fear of damage. Amazing things, however!
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Dale Hallmark
Joined: 16 Jun 2014
Posts: 189
Location: Texas Panhandle
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 16:45 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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In general I do not want man made minerals but I certainly don't exclude them and in most cases don't consider them fakes. I am an avid coin collector so I have a pre-conceived notion of what a fake is. Quite a few fake turquoise and opal exists that really are fakes.
I also have a couple man made jewels for samples that are pretty neat. They are the mineral they purport to be but are man made.
If I ever go for a Bismuth sample (and I eventually will) it WILL certainly be a man made sample. For a clear Quartz crystal cluster...I could go either way.
Nice samples!
Dale
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Pete Richards
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 16:52 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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I have a quartz specimen that I treasure, made by Vlad. I treasure it because its basic symmetry is all wrong - it is a cube! Actually, I'm sure the symmetry is all right (alright?) because it is controlled by the structure. But the way the seed was cut allowed it to develop into a cube. Fun!
_________________ Collecting and studying crystals with interesting habits, twinning, and epitaxy |
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Mark Ost
Joined: 18 Mar 2013
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Location: Virginia Beach
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 16:56 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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The synthetic quartz is quite spectacular. I see no problem as long as they are labeled as such. Frankly I would be happy to have such nice work and would value it no less, perhaps a bit more perchance.
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Pete Richards
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 17:09 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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Jesse Fisher wrote: | Here is a photo of a twinned quartz that I picked up (about 4 cm across). Not a Japan-Law, but at a more acute angle, perhaps on the rhombohedron.
(snip)
Jesse |
With the usual proviso that it's hard to do morphological analysis from a photograph...
my guess is that these crystals basically have only one of the terminal rhombohedra well developed. And it appears that the outer edges of these rhombohedra are parallel to each other across the twin. If this is true, the edges are parallel to the twin plane. The Miller indices for the plane which would be there if it were expanded from being an edge (and still retaining parallelism to the twin plane) are obtained by summing the Miller indices for the two faces that meet at the edge. These would be (10-11) and (choose your favorite other face of this rhombohedron, I'll use (-1101)) 1+ -1=0, 0+1=1, -1+0=-1, 1+1=2, i.e. (01-12), a negative rhombohedron. This is what Frondel describes as the Sella Law in the third volume of Dana's System 7th edition. I did not try to follow all the details, but the angle between the c-axes is reported to be 64°50'.
On the other hand, if my reading of the photo is wrong, I have no clue and all bets are off!
_________________ Collecting and studying crystals with interesting habits, twinning, and epitaxy |
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bob kerr
Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 538
Location: Monroeville PA
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 17:31 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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thought I'd add some Vlad/Milla photos of their booth in the JGM tent. interesting xls - all he needs to do now is add some color (inconsistently within a specimen) and it's be a winner.
a few booths down was a Colombian quartz dealer selling specimens by the Kg. this has to be the most lustrous, sharpest and most gemmy natural quartz there is.
bob
Mineral: | quartz man made |
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bob kerr
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 17:34 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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here's a photo of the Colombian quartz specimen I bought at $200 a kg.
bob
Mineral: | Quartz |
Locality: | Peñas Blancas Mine, Municipio San Pablo de Borbur, Western Emerald Belt, Boyacá Department, Colombia | |
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Dimensions: | 8cm wide |
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Fiebre Verde
Joined: 11 Sep 2013
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Posted: Feb 20, 2015 18:17 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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bob kerr wrote: | here's a photo of the Columbian quartz specimen I bought at $200 a kg.
bob |
This is a stunning quartz.
When combined with emeralds, it becomes the holy grail of emerald matrix specimens.
Gérard
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Pierre Joubert
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Posted: Feb 21, 2015 03:48 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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Fantastic thread Elise! I have always wanted to acquire 'man made' quartz specimen/s and am glad to see that some one is selling them. Regards :-)
_________________ Pierre Joubert
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John S. White
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Posted: Feb 21, 2015 06:23 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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I am one of those who found the repaired amethyst unsettling. It is all well and good to say it is okay if the specimens are appropriately labelled, but we all know that there are those who will not do so. In fact, I attended a small mineral show nearly two years ago where a dealer was selling very large sprays of the porcupine-like quartz, up to 10 inches or more, and they were not labelled as lab grown and he refused to tell potential buyers that they were not natural. But to return to the repaired amethyst, I would have been eager to examine it closely. One thing I have observed is that the striations on prism faces of lab grown quartz crystals are diagonal whereas those on natural quartz tend to be horizontal (at right angles to the prism edges). I would want to see if the striations on the repaired amethyst are diagonal or horizontal.
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Elise
Joined: 22 Dec 2009
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Posted: Feb 21, 2015 10:07 Post subject: Re: Quartz, Natural and Synthetic |
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John S. White wrote: | One thing I have observed is that the striations on prism faces of lab grown quartz crystals are diagonal whereas those on natural quartz tend to be horizontal (at right angles to the prism edges). I would want to see if the striations on the repaired amethyst are diagonal or horizontal. |
For those wondering what John is referring to, here is a photo comparing the surface features of crystal faces on a synthetic specimen (old Russian grown crystal) and a natural quartz specimen. John has examined the one on the left, as has Si Frazier a couple years ago -- it's pretty neat. But, all depends on the seed crystal orientation and the growth conditions as to what appears to be a prism or other crystal face. It can be very disorienting without looking at the angles.
As to the repairing of specimens - isn't it done all the time with glue (?), especially with tourmaline? Well, maybe not a good analogy. I spent a lot of time trying to look at the amethyst cluster in the display - it was difficult to tell much about the angles and surface without good lighting while being able to turn it around in the hand -- I wondered how both changed in relation to the natural and whether there is overgrowth lower down that masks the natural part (also, how much color loss occurred and where - too bad it's not possible to capture on film what is happening inside the autoclave with time-lapse photography, such as can be done inside a Diamond Anvil Cell). But, I'd point out that the process is expensive and time consuming, not to mention dangerous. There is also the danger of damaging very expensive equipment. Rather than a link again, I'll paste in part of Jamison Brizendine's explanation for those who missed it (original: https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=43944&highlight=#43944):
Jamison Brizendine wrote: |
Before the specimen was subjected to the autoclave, there were roughly seven crystals that probably were terminated. Most likely those crystals broke after the pocket was subjected to some tectonic force. One of the terminations later had secondary quartz crystal growth (lower front right). The quartz during the secondary quartz crystallization was clear as there was no iron to produce the amethyst color. Various smaller quartz crystals also grew during this secondary pulse of crystallization. One of the pre-requisites of trying to regrow quartz was that the amethyst had to have as little matrix as possible as the matrix would have dissolved, and then those dissolved particles would have damaged the steel autoclave. This particular specimen had barely any matrix and therefore made a very good candidate to attempt the experiment.
After five months of being in an alkaline aqueous solution at high temperature and pressure (roughly 650 F [345 C] and 10,000 psi), all broken terminations were “regrown and re-healed”. These new growths were all clear points, because the silica solution in the autoclave was pure. A small portion of synthetic quartz had to be added to the matrix to keep it stable and from breaking apart. The purple color has quite diminished, but there is still a portion of the original color that remained. Any small crystals originally on the matrix were dissolved in the autoclave. You can see the contact between new and old crystal growths quite easily. ..
(snip)....
To allay your fears about knowing the difference between synthetic vs natural quartz, you just have to look at the crystal very carefully. Often you can see the original seed quartz crystal in these clusters. It is also extremely difficult, laborious and requires intense knowledge, time and patience to regrow these clusters. Besides the waiting period, you need to maintain the correct temperatures and pressures, for months and even years at a time. If you make a mistake it can be catastrophic. Today, there are very few laboratories around the world that continue to even make synthetic quartz, because there are cheaper alternatives. So I doubt a lot of “copy cats” will pop up, but time will only tell.
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The old lab-grown "mineral specimens" in my collection - quartz grown on druzy 40-50 years ago - are pretty weird looking if one looks closely. The angles are all off. I guess I'm more disturbed by the metaphysical hype surrounding quartz -- let's have more emphasis on learning about the crystallographic and other properties of minerals so that people will be better informed about what they are looking at....then they can inform the sellers promoting synthetic as natural or, in my mind, the much more disturbing notion of any "healing powers" of quartz (see: https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=33695&highlight=#33695 )
Carry on... ;-)
Elise
(PS: Pete - I would love to see that synthetic quartz cube!)
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Synthetic and Natural Quartz Photo: Elise Skalwold |
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