FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[GneissWare]

Peter, I like your analysis, except I am just a bit concerned about fixation with cannabis!

Prices have certainly increased over the years, but the quality has also, in many cases, followed along. Extracting specimens correctly costs money, as does prep work, which is now done at a level never before seen. Much of this is driven by the sophisticated collector who is willing to pay for such quality. And, as has been said, the increase in prices does create a entry barrier for new collectors who want the absolute best but can't afford it. For those who are OK with just below the best, there are lots of deals! And that is a niche that is a lot of fun to collect within-finding a great rock at a great price!

Geology departments have never been the fount of new mineral collectors. When I was at university, there were 2 students in a department of about 100 students who had any interest in mineralogy or mineral collecting. None of the profs were interested either. Collectors tend to come from the general public, and often are people who were exposed to and fascinated by minerals at a young age. That was my path, and it was the love of minerals that drove me into a geology education.

Shows are declining. The internet is maturing, allowing us to buy rocks from places collectors only dreamed of obtaining at shows. Its actually a pretty good time to be collecting! But, to keep the hobby going means engaging elementary school kids now.

[vic rzonca]

[Jordi Fabre]

Let me add a variation in this interesting topic. Among the changes that the Internet has introduced in our hobby, there is one non minor that perhaps is not enough taken into account.

Years ago, the only reputable and respected dealers were elder dealers and that happened because the "mental database" necessary to appreciate the enormous complexity of the so different quality & localities of the minerals was so large that it requested decades to built a good knowledge of a so large diversity with so many slight variations. Only the people with many years of experience could had that level of knowledge.
Currently all the information existing in countless virtual databases, whose greatest exponent is Mindat, allows to someone with good knowledge of the network and many time available to become a good "comparator" in a much shorter time than what was needed before. That's why today we see good dealers with a good level of knowledge who are not elder and can even become young people. This is a very important change that the Internet has generated and, attention, if there are currently good dealers who are no longer elder. consequently there are also good young collectors and this can produce very important changes in our hobby in the near future, if these changes there are not happening already.

An important nuance of all this is that it is not the same a good "comparator" that a good "expert" or in the ancient words a good "mineralogist" but that is another subject, and a very dense and difficult subject ;-)

[Peter Lemkin]

The above by Jordi is certainly true. One can get a better idea of what mid to best pieces of any particular specimen might look like [even from a specific place or area]. However, Mindat [and I'm not criticizing them for this] and many other sites don't help one to get a 'feel' for an appropriate price for a particular species at a particular quality and size. When I look at minerals for 'sale' on ebay, I generally find many [not all] asking prices I consider 2-10 times what they are worth based on the shows I physically go to. OK, the variety is great, but the prices are not. One might be able to bargain a little, but everyone is trying to sell good pieces for premium [and then some] dollar/euro/whatever. Being an old hand and knowing a lot about minerals, locations, rare variants, etc. I still can find 'bargains' at a show [a lovely piece to me for some reason at 'normal' or discounted price]. Many new or less-experienced collectors will always be drawn to the showy stuff that is now priced sky-high. Oh, I appreciate it and look, but increasingly those really fantastic museum-quality [or investor-quality] pieces are out of my reach. That was not always the case. In fact, I think a few pieces in my collection are the best [or very nearly the best] of their species/variety - and I certainly didn't spend a fortune on them - I only got lucky or knew what I was doing in the past. I remember one collector's case on display at a Denver Mineral Show. Lovely pieces all!...I happened to talk to the owner and asked how long he had been collecting. This fifty-something man said with a straight face 'six months'. I was in shock. I'd been collecting all my life from age eight. I didn't have ask about his disposable income - the case must have been worth at least half a million US $ at current prices. That kind of collector didn't exist [minus a handful who none knew about] decades ago. They may be great at driving some businesses, and to some extent paying for new and interesting mining-for-specimens in exotic places, but they have also driven the prices of many nice pieces out of my [and I have to assume] many other's ballpark and dreams. I'm not bitter about it, but a bit sad. I still have a great collection that I started when prices were a LOT lower and much of my favorite pieces [if not always the best - but sometimes they are] were self-collected. It is incredible to see just what beauty Nature can provide - even if one [I] can't have some of them for myself. Some collections have become somewhat less of mineral collections and more of 'uncut gem art' collections for the well-heeled or the mineral speculator. It is just a different time. I hope there will always be space for the beginner and those who have a full appreciation of quality minerals, but perhaps not deep pockets - of the pants variety. As I said, I often go to slightly smaller and more local shows [as well as the BIG ones] to find more reasonable prices - and often local minerals that are of interest. I also still self-collect and will until my dying day. I agree that with a little work one can still find more good self-collecting places than one has time to visit. I've got a long list and there are some old-favorites that never disappoint me whenever I return. To me, a person who really understands and appreciates minerals and mineralogy will also be interested in some specimens that are not just aesthetically fantastic [although we all appreciate those], but are also interesting for other reasons [rare, unusual habit, pseudomorph, or associations, etc.]. I love some of my 'less-than-beautiful' minerals too...and all of my self-collected materials ;-)

One other factor, only mentioned once briefly in this thread, is the proliferation of 'New-Age' interest in Crystals/Minerals for healing/karma/el al. If this existed during my first decades of collecting and going to mineral shows, I'm unaware of it - and doubt it. While I do not believe in this, or that mineral/xx is 'good' for anything other than its aesthetics and what it can inform me about the mysteries of atomic structure and the mysteries of elements in the Universe and their combinations, it has brought new people to shows [in positive and perhaps, to some, negative ways]. I'm often asked by persons of this type when looking at my collection what this or that crystal 'is good for'...I try not to offend them, and simply tell them I think this or that mineral is 'good for collecting' [and then state my reasons for believing so]. However, we often live in parallel 'universes' with little overlap.

[Chris Rayburn]

One additional way in which the Internet has changed our hobby/profession is the growth of virtual mineral collecting clubs on social media, particularly Facebook. Most established clubs have set up Facebook groups; perhaps more significantly, entirely new groups have been formed to connect collectors with other collectors and with dealers. I belong to several of these groups in and around my home state of Colorado, and they are quite active sites for exchanging information on mineral collecting sites, recent finds, tips and techniques, etc. Not surprisingly, many of the most active users are younger. (I count anyone under 40 as “younger.” Ten years from now it’ll be 50.) As others have noted, I believe social media and other online activity have largely replaced clubs and mineral shows as venues for younger collectors. They’re out there and they’re engaged. Show attendance and the average age of club members are no longer good barometers for measuring the health of the hobby.

[Tobi]

[Philippe Durand]

My daughter, 9 years old, has her own collection of thumbnails and miniatures.
I have guided her the first years (buying minerals as gifts) but now she attends the Paris Show with me and is particularly interested in flurorites.

Maybe in the teen age, this interest will disappear, but "este gusanillo" will surely be
reborn in the future :)

What is more painful is to see only grey hairs in the show reports (Tucson, Denver, ...)
in the Mineralogical Record staff, and so on. Who will continue to educate, to spend time
for the communication around the hobby? Is there any one in the 40s or 50s to continue
what was and is being done by this generation ?

[David]

I'm a mineral collector because I'm fascinated by minerals, not because it's fashionable or not. It doesn't matter much for me how many people are into this. I will probably be a mineral collector until the day I die (are there minerals in heaven and hell?).

[alfredo]

"What is more painful is to see only grey hairs in the show reports (Tucson, Denver, ...)"

...That's because the show reporters are getting elderly and they take photos of their friends. If you look at show reports by young collectors, on Facebook or Instagram for example, there are only young people in the photos. Our impressions are skewed by who our friends are, our individual social circle. A lot of this discussion about the health of the hobby is based on such illusions.

Take for example the complaints about out-of-sight astronomical prices "destroying the hobby"... Another illusion, an illusion created by our increasingly refined tastes as we get older. I still have some calcite cleavage I bought for 50 cents, 40 years ago. I was excited by it at the time, of course my tastes have improved and I need much more expensive rocks now. I don't go to the flea market mineral shows in Quartzite or the Electric Park in Tucson, where that 50 cent specimen might cost a whole dollar now. But for the beginners, those deals are still available.

If we point the beginners towards the dealers with $10,000 glass cases and kilowatts of lighting, then yes, we can expect them to be overwhelmed by the prices. That's a self-defeating way to get young people started with mineral collecting.

[James Catmur]

Excellent points Alfredo. I was just remarking to my children that many of 'my generation' of dealers have retired. By 'my generation', I mean the ones who were older than me and taught me and helped me. But there are new dealers taking their places. The same happens with collectors.

When I was 16 in the 1970s I had the great chance to see a collection that was way out of my league. I did feel that I could never match it. So there have always been high end collections new collectors will feel are way beyond them.

So more show reports by young collectors please.

[Jeff]

Jordi, you have raised a good point in another posting about the "atomization of the Tucson show" (Tucson Show 2018 - The atomization of the Tucson Shows) which, I believe, might have some relationship to the health of the hobby -- albeit tangential. Like many collectors, I have a limited amount of time and funds to attend mineral shows and, living in the Pacific Northwest, must travel some distance to go to the Denver and Tucson shows. As a collector of mineral specimens, I find it discouraging that some shows of interest to me (and perhaps many others) begin and end a number of days before what I consider to be the main event, the Tucson Gem & Mineral convention center show. To be able to attend all of the shows I would like to would require that I remain in Tucson for at least a week or more with the attendant additional hotel etc. costs. -- something neither I nor most collectors who live some distance from Tucson can afford to do. Yes, there are many good shows for mineral collectors that can be attended within a four or so day period which is a reasonable period of time -- but I find it difficult to understand why there isn't a greater effort to consolidate shows or hold them within a shorter time period. I am aware the argument could be made that there just aren't that many venues available in Tucson to do this. And I know that many retail buyers use the time before the major convention show to acquire specimens for their inventory. Nevertheless, for the individual collector, this is a discouraging aspect of trying to engage in the hobby through attendance at major mineral shows.

[alfredo]

Tucson has thousands of dealers, literally, so whether you stay 1 weekend, 1 week, 2 weeks or 3 weeks (as I do), you'll never see them all! There are no venues big enough to hold all of them, nor even a quarter of them. Shrinking the show is a lost cause ;((