FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[Peter Megaw]

Many bemoan the graying of the mineral collecting community...but a noble few actually do something about attracting new young collectors to the fold. I wold lilke to point out a few of these that I have been directly touched by and hope others can chime in with some additional examples....in hopes that Shows can see the value in taking some of these ideas and incorporating them into ther formats. This may be especially important as many of the historcially important club shows lose ground to higher end commercial shows that are designed primarily as sales venues to the collecting elite...further widening the gap between beginners (young or old) and established collectors who are probably the best able to infect new comers with our delightful disease. I apolgize in advance for my Tucson-centric observations...I don't get out much.

To keep these comments manageable, I will send in separate squibs on each of the 4 efforts...starting with competitive exhibits.

The Tucson Gem and Mineral Society has "promoting education in minerals and earth sciences" as one of its prime objectives. There are four principal ways the TGMS does this at our show. Junior Competition, Junior Education, School Children visits and special talks on starting a collection. Many of our dealers understand the importance of these efforts and provide specimens at special prices, donate specimens and/or cash for youth prizes, and make themselves available to potential young collectors. We should all thank them very much and encourage them to keep doing it!

Junior competition at Tucson has a long and storied history...with notable collectors including Richard Bideaux, Les Presmyk, Gene Schlepp, and Evan Jones coming up through these ranks. More recently a couple of clusters of young collectors have emerged: David Wallace, Brandy Whitaker and Will Shafer (all offspring of TGMS stalwarts) in the 90's; and Lauren, Eleanor, Charles and Caitlin in the aughts have carried on (with several of the latter involved in Bryan Swoboda's "New Crystal Hunters" DVD series as well)...and there are hints of an even younger wave in the wings.

What is not as widely known as it should be is that incentives exist to encourage any and all young collectors to exhibit competitively. The TGMS gives trophies and ribbons to acknowledge the best cases in each category (Junior and Junior Master...the TGMS Show is the only show I know of with the Junior Master category...earned by those who win 2 blue ribbons in Junior), and all junior competitors get a nominal cash award from TGMS. In recent years, the TGMS cash awards have been very generously supplemented by Dr. Rob Lavinsky in memory of Carlton Davis, the man who got Rob started on minerals. Rob's awards are anything but nominal...the first prize winner gets $500...enough to buy a good rock from almost any dealer...and the second and third place winners also get hundreds of dollars in prizes. But this is not limited just to the top prize winners...ALL junior exhibitors get $100 in recognition of their efforts. Rob has pledged that this will be an on-going program.

Please encourage any and all potential Junior exhibitors you know to come and compete at Tucson....not just for the prizes (which should help defray the expense of building risers and liners as well as creating the ability to add a good specimen to their collection...which a savvy youngster can often leverage into substantial discounts) but for the comraderie among the other young exhibitors...and special programs organized by Brandy and Justin at the VUG, and Bryan Swoboda for the New Crystal Hunters group. The kids themselves are working on organizing an gathering area where they can talk amongst themselves and where experienced collectors...like Dave Wilbur, who interviewed several of the current junior collectors last year, can pass on gems of wisdom to the newcomers.

As I'll mention in a later squib, competition is not just about winning, the kids learn about collection organization, display/showmanship and proper labeling. They also learn about mineralogy and geology. I personally make sure my collector-daughter knows something about the minerals she exhibits and their geologic environment and try to talk to the other kids about this when I can.

I'm going to encourage Les Presmyk to jump in here and fill out some of the aspects I missed. He runs the competitive exhibits at Tucson and is the man to contact regarding getting junior competitors into the show. As general exhibits Chair, I note that competition always gets priority for case space over general exhibits, so we effectively cannot turn down any competitors for lack of case space!

[Les Presmyk]

Thank you Peter for getting this started. This year, the Tucson Show Chairman, John Cesar, has committed the central portion of the exhibit areas to the competitive cases so it is now my responsibility to make sure we have a number of exhibits to justify this support. I am not worried about the quality of the displays, just the quantity.

I have been in touch with a young lady who attended the Tucson Show for the first time this year. She will be back in 2010 as a competitive exhibitor. She is bringing her minerals from Maryland, and of course, with a lot of support from her parents. She worries that her minerals will not be good enough, especially after looking at the competitive exhibits this year. Each of the competitive exhibitors, especially juniors, have to start somewhere. I have had the privelege to see two distinct groups fo young exhibitors, age and mature, both physically, and with the quality of their displays.

I am available and willing to work with all collectors who would like to try their hand at competing, no matter the age. For me, if I am going to go to the work of displaying a group of minerals, I prefer to compete. I appreciate that most people do not want their minerals to be judged and would rather put in non-competitive exhibits. But, at the end of the day, we all exhibit so we can show off our specimens so in some form, we know we will be at least judged by our peers.

I must applaud Rob Lavinsky's support for the junior age competitors. His biggest disappointment is that more young collectors are not taking advantage of his offer. It is this. All junior age competitive exhibitors at the Tucson Show will receive at least $100. The highest scroing junior, regardless of the competitive class, gets $500 and the second highest score receives $300. This honors his mentor, Carlton Fisk, and all of us who had adults takes us underwing and encourage our interests. It is intended to encourage young collectors to display their minerals at the Tucson Show.

I started competing at the age of 10, first with the 4-H group I was a member of, and then quickly stepped up to the Arizona State Fair. This was the likes of Bob Jones, Harry Roberson, Tom McKee, Edna Andregg, the Sonnenbergs and most of the other Phoenix area collectors competed. Besides being close to home, we got $10 for a first prize, $5 for second and $2.50 for third. With educational exhibits, there was one year that I won over $100. The check arrived about two weeks before the Tucson Show so you can begin to see the incentive. As Peter mentioned, I competed at the Tucson Show as a junior but even then it was quite a project to be able to get everything ready and set-up at the show.

[Peter Megaw]

And $100 back in the 19th century bought a LOT of rocks

[Les Presmyk]

Yes it did and especially at Walt Lidstrom's booth at the Tucson Show. BTW, I thought you were leaving.

[Tony L. Potucek]

Thanks for opening this thread, Peter. I had no real mentoring or incentives in my early years other than desire and an interest that caused me to pursue minerals and geology throughout my life. As I became a more knowledgable collector, some by painful purchases and bad judgement, I realized that younger collectors needed to be provided some direction in collecting habits. During the years that I judged the competitive exhibits at Tucson, which included the juniors, I made it a special point to explain the flyers--highs and lows--in the scores that I awarded to their exhibits. I usually did not see the other judges doing this, but my belief is that young collectors needed to know why some of their specimens scored better/worse than others. Simply awarding a particularly high or low score really doesn't convey any information to the collector, except that it was or was not liked by the judge. Did it help? I hope so....

[Peter Megaw]

I know Lauren appreciated these comments and took them into consideration as she built her collection...don;t think it hurt much there!

Sounds like you should bang on WLP to get maximum benefit from his judges.

Actually, a fair number still make comments and suggestions, so the thread is not lost

[Ed Huskinson]

I said it every time I when I used to clark for the quality judges, and even when I wasn't. "Write down what the judges say!!". I feel this is important, particularly when judging a neophyte's case. They will be delighted to know that such and such a specimen is of good quality, or that this other one is poor because it has dings all over the display faces, or that the crystal to matrix ratio is too low (this may be an American thing, not so important in Europe). People want to be able to read the judging sheets and learn from them. Numbers are nice, but comments are more helpful to the displayer. And I tell them to emphasize the positive comments. These things encourage the competitor and keep him/her interested. Too much negativity and boom! the door is slammed for them and their interest is lost. I used to think that my risers were the great until someone pointed out to me that they are in fact, too low. I looked again and hey! They're right. It's an iterative process.

And Tony still judges the competitive exhibits, and yes, he is one of the judges who emphasizes things that he feels it is important to impart to the competitor. I always enjoy that about Tony. That, and the "repartee" between him and Bleess when they're on a roll.

So yes, Tony, your comments did help the competitors, and I know they were/are appreciated. I have a few judging sheets from the '70's and '80's with your comments on them, and enjoy reviewing them when I'm preparing a case for competition. And those same comments helped Aleta when she was preparing her first competitive case.

And finally, I reiterate the kudos to Rob Lavinsky for supporting the junior exhibitors. Despite the obvious appearance of grooming future clients, the act speaks for itself, and I applaud him for it.

More later,

Ed

[Peter Megaw]

If it wasn't for enlilghtened self interest we'd all be hooped

[BlueCapProductions]

How many judges are there for the junior competitive cases?

[Ed Huskinson]

Bryan:

Judging takes place on the Thursday night of the Show, after everyone has left the building except for the judging staff, the security (TPD), and sometimes the canine unit. It depends: Nice Doggie.

Judging is blind, in that there are three quality judges, each of whom is assigned a clerk. The judge and his clerk walk up to a case to be judged, and the clerk picks up a clipboard with the judging sheet on it. This sheet was filled out by the competitor, then placed on a clipboard underneath the case, usually by Les Presmyk.

The judge and the clerk peer into the case, the clerk tells the judge which spcimen to start with, and the judging begins. Usually the specimens are arrayed left to right and from back to front, like reading a book. The clerk writes down the judge's decision for the specimen on the judging sheet, and then tells him which piece to consider next. The judge never sees the other judges' scores or comments. Only the clerks have this privilege.

Besides the 3 quality judges, there is a judge for showmanship, one for rarity, and usually two for labelling (to provide oversight for each other). There is a judge for fossils if needed, and for micromounts if needed.

Educational cases are judged by two individuals, one of whom is almost always a curator.

Points are given for self-collected cases and for rarity (regardless of case). The level of competition for the exhibitor is factored in, and the class in which he or she is competing. All of these parameters are plugged into a fairly sophisticated formula and the end result is calculated by Les Presmyk, and thus a final numerical score is derived. Different competitors need different number scores to win: ie, the more times you have competed, and thus have advanced from novice to advanced to master, etc, the more points you need to win in each category. And there are junior (ie, age) levels as well. They compete up to a certain age, I disremember what that age is. After that, they are no longer Juniors.

Let's see. That's the nutshell of it. Les will expand on the parts I left out. One thing to point out is that it is very rare to have a swing of more than a point or point and a half, on a specimen by all three judges. And when the judging sheets are all tallied, the judges are invariably within a few points of each other, overall. These guys know their rocks.

Judging is a hoot. It's a lot of fun, can be a bit contentious, and it's almost always a lot of work. Everyone takes the job seriously, and the result is even-handed and as impartial as possible. Sometimes a judge is recused from judging a certain case. Usually he or she has told Les that they know the competitor and feel that this may color their decision-making. Someone else then steps in. Regardless of all this, it's a fun thing to do.

And that's it Bryan. Now it's your turn. To compete, I mean. Remember, there's a bonus for self-collected specimens.

Here're a couple of photos of the 2008 judging.

Thanks,

Ed

[BlueCapProductions]

Ed,

Wow. Thanks for the in-depth explanation. I figured it was somewhat more complicated then just a, "hmmm....me like that one" but I didn't realize how much was involved.

The reason I asked was not because I'd compete (although thanks for the vote of confidence). I was asking because I'm VERY committed to doing everything I can to help the next generation get involved in the hobby.

I've been following the thread and the idea of providing the kids who competitively display more information about their why their case did/didn't win is intriguing to me. What I'd like to put out there (and I welcome feedback from everyone) is to volunteer BlueCap Production's time to run around to the different junior cases, film the contents and also interview the judges (or an overall spokesperson like Les or Tony) and have them explain to the camera what worked and what didn't work (emphasis on the positive as Ed says).

I could film this after everything is tallied and have a completed DVD ready within 24 hours for distribution to the kids who are competing AND possibly any other kids who is interested in competing. In this way everyone could learn a little and if we do this every year, in a short period of time there will be an encyclopedia of knowledge available for the kids.

The only thing I'd need is to get everyone on board with this idea (or at least everyone to participate in massaging this idea until it's absolutely solid) and, depending on the quantity of DVDs I'd produce, I might need someone to cover my hard costs in making the DVDs themselves. This could either be the TGMS or I can go out and find sponsors among the dealers. All the time for filming, editing and production would be my contribution to the package.

We could even make this a series of shorts that I could upload to YouTube so that it's available to everyone.

Thoughts????

-Bryan

[Tracy]

Don't want to "drail the train" from Bryan's post but, as a non-competitor, there are a few bits of information I don't fully grasp. Thanks for the great explanation Ed, but can you (or anyone else) shed some further light on:

1) how is the competitor's standing communicated to the judge, is it by the competitor him/herself? (and the cynic in me says "what's to stop a repeat competitor from passing him/herself off as a first-timer?")
2) what happens if the two labeling judges disagree about a particular label? Do they confer and, perhaps, get into high-spritied discussion over a label's accuracy? Does the judging chair get involved?
2a) What exactly are labeling judges scoring for? (e.g., appearance, accuracy)
3) what constitutes a good score? Is there a maximum total (e.g., 100) or does it fluctuate depending on all the variables which were described?
4) is there a category for beginner-level adults, or are the junior categories reserved for the younger collectors (and if so, what is the age limit)? Someday I might decide to try my hand...

Thanks - now back to Bryan! To me, Bryan, your idea is promising and I'd help if I could, though alas I'm lacking in the needed skill sets. I will keep watch to see how it unfolds and maybe find an opportunity to pitch in.

- Tracy

[Jordi Fabre]

Kids and adolescents they use currently Youtube, Videos, DVD, etcetera... as us we used TV when younger, so they could be very interested for something offered using these medias -> ergo for me your idea is great!

Of course FMF is at your disposition for everything you could need and if you need something that is not currently available in FMF please letting me know and we will try to do our best (with our limitations) to supply it to you.

Anyway, let people from Tucson Show answer you with their thoughts about your idea. They know quite well his own Show, so they can appraise your offer better than me.

Jordi

[Tony L. Potucek]

Hi, Bryan,
It is very good to hear from you and my best regards to your Poppa and sister. I LIKE your idea and am willing to help you at the Show if you need my presence.

A further note on the judging. We don't get paid anything for our services except a meal. That is it. Occasionally, when Les remembers, we get the mineral poster of the show to decorate our homes. I have lobbied for good libations to be offered AFTER the judging, but nothing proffered as yet. Of course, the only reason I am doing this is to keep up the old bounder's tradition started years ago by the venerable judging team of Al McGuinness and John Patrick (heh, heh).....

I will defer to the folks like Les and Peter who drive the competitive exhibits, but I can offer a couple of answers to your questions, Tracy. TGMS scoring is unlike other organizational mineral judging. It is based on a 1 to 10 scale, with 10 being world class in the eyes of the seasoned collector. Ten represents the epitome of your wildest dream for what the species can produce. Few specimens, and in some cases, only one specimen, are known to exist that would score a 10. I look at pieces and ask myself, "Would I want that in my collection?" I rarely award a score of less than 7, because that sends the message that perhaps an upgrade in the piece is recommended. Is the system perfect? No, but it works. Quality judging is the artistic side of mineral judging, looking for the blemishes, the aesthetics, crystal perfection or appeal, crystal size, and so forth. I do not and never will compete because I do not wish to do so. I do exhibit specimens almost every year at Tucson. But when asked, I will judge because it is the beauty, as well as the science of mineralogy, that got me collecting when I was 8 years old.

As far as some folks trying to beat the system and stay in a lower class to win ribbons, etc, we don't see it. Specimens are remembered and we really are a small group, so folks are remembered as well. I hope this information explains what we do when we judge for quality. Ed, by the way, has been my favorite clerk in the past, and is well qualified to judge. I have used his constructive comments in the past during judging when an impasse may be reached on my solo judging. I value his experience and knowledge.

[Les Presmyk]

Bryan, I will take you up on your gracious offer and will make whatever accommodations necessary to make it happen. Anything I can do to help make the competitive process more informative for the exhibitors is my ultimate goal. Ed, thanks for the summary, You have been paying attention and I am impressed.

Before Rob chose to offer prize money to junior exhibitors, the Tucson Show committee did give juniors $25 in script that could be used with any of the Tucson Show dealers.
I know it is human nature to question the motives about people do what they do. Rob Lavinsky writes each of the junior exhibitors a check that can be used anywhere and for anything. Whether he is grooming future custormers, I don't care. He is the only dealer or collector who has ever stepped up to do something like this and I applaud him for it. So far, his only regret is that more young collectors are not taking advantage of his gift.

As a bit of background, I have been the competitive exhibits/judging chair at the Tucson Show for 25 years and have judged there since the 1970's under former chairs Stan Keith and Pete Knudsen. I have competed for 47 years both locally (Phoenix, Globe, and Tucson) and nationally (San Diego, Salt Lake City, Pittsburgh, Ventura and Denver).

Currently, I have the best team of judges of any judging chair. These include Forrest and Barbara Cureton, Tony Potucek, Ed Huskinson (who besides my wife, Paula, is always there to help however he can), Neil Prenn, Al & Sue Liebetrau, Al Young, Terry Wallace, Bill Besse, Sam Nasser, Ron Pellar, Stan Keith, Gene Tribbey, Jan Rasmussen, Joel Bartsch, and Marshall Koval. Every year I try to add one or two new folks, as clerks and then to judges.

There are five exhibitor categoies at the Tucson Show, Junior, Junior-Master (unique to the Tucson Show), Novice, Advanced, and Master. The first two categories are for those under the age of 18, the latter three for adults. However, a 14 year old could enter in the Master level if he or she desired. There has only been one instance that I am aware of where an adult entered her thumbnails in her daughter's name. If anyone has a question they contact me at: Presmyk(at)cox(dot)net and we work through it to determine the proper category. The biggest issues have been ownership of specimens and repairs, enhancements and manufactured specimens.

The judging team consists of three quality judges and three clerks, two rarity judges, two showmanship judges and two labelling judges (who also happen to be qualified educational exhibit judges). Each exhibitor is required to fill out a list of all of the specimens in their exhibit. This is the list the clerk uses to fill in the scores and comments from their respective judge. At no time does the clerk or the judge know who the exhibitor is. After all of the judging is completed, I take the sheets and add up all of the scores.

All of the exhibits, junior and adult, are judged the same, without regard to age or exhibitor category. The differentiation takes place in the scoring for ribbons and trophies. In order to be considered for a trophy, an exhibit has to attain enough points to be awarded a first place ribbon. The points necessary for a first place ribbon in each of the categories are as follows: Master, 85 points; Advanced, 75 points; Novice, 65 points, and both Junior categories, 60 points.

I use the three quality judges to judge the Best of Species and the special trophies: Bideaux, Lidstrom and Desautels. If there is a debate or the need for a tie-breaker, either I step in or I ask one of the other qualified quality judges to help out. In the case of labelling, it is fairly cut and dry. Tucson requires the name(s) of the species to be judged and the state or country of origin. I ask the labelling judges to note any corrections to all of the other information presented so the exhibitor can make any necessary changes before entering somewhere else. The look of the label is judged under showmanship.

If anyone has any questions please contact me. This year at Tucson we will have the competitive exhibits near the center of the hall.