FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board

[James Catmur]

So it is clear that color is not a constant across cultures or even the sexes! Yet we all seem to prize that 'apple green' color in pyromorphite (which I have to admit I cannot see) - so how do we know it is the 'right' apple green. I guess we learn from hearing others say "this is the best color" and then we make it the best color in our eyes! Of course we could get the wrong idea, and I guess we do from time to time, and I also guess that the best color changes in time (I am sure a victorian collector would not think the same way we now do).

So in the end it is all in the eye of the beholder- but we train ourselves to value the color other people value (and I really love the blue Flourite from Berbes!)

[Tracy]

I would submit that it's all part of the individual learning process. I'm weak in crystallography so I trained myself to consider crystals based on what I hear others say about their quality. Over time it's getting easier to spot "good" crystals on my own, much the same way as over time a color-blind person would train themselves to find specimens which others value for their color. It's all about information-processing and skill sets.

By the way, I don't think Les Farges pyros look "apple-green" at all (actually apples make me think of red, not green) - not meaning to complicate or confuse things... :-)

[James Catmur]

Tracy

Another cultural difference - in the US apples are red while in the UK they are green? And to me the Les Farges ones are normally brown (but that does not count for much!)

James

[Les Presmyk]

Smithsonite from the 79 mine in Arizona is judged by its closeness to being apple green. I am not sure I can define it but I know it when I see it, especially if I am buying or selling the specimen.

Maybe we all need to carry color swatches around with us so we can compare colors that way. No, because the paint companies and fashion designers work hard every year to come up with new names for the same colors. Oh well, I am going back to my 5 shades of blue (maybe adding a 6th - electric blue) and calling it a day.

[Jordi Fabre]

[alfredo]

Maybe you are right Jordi - Czechs have the highest percentage of color blind people in the population and the highest percentage of mineral collectors!

[James Catmur]

Jordi

Your second theory is 100% correct in my opinion - it is how I work with dealers and very few know that I am color blind.

On your first theory the colorblind do see the world differently. I did this wonderful excercie once of looking at an aerial photo of a battle field and I was asked 'how many disguised weapons are there?' I could see lots as, while the color might be right, the shade abd form of the camoflage was wrong, but people who are not color blind see very few. This is a well known effect. And as I said before when out field collecting I look at things differently so find different things

James

[Tracy]

I'd have trouble accepting theory #1. It suggests that color-blindness in and of itself would get someone interested in minerals. I think that there are plenty of interests/hobbies that would appeal to someone who is color-blind - I doubt there's any difference in "interest potential" between a color-blind person and a non-color-blind person. There are also a lot of form- and detail-oriented things that do not involve minerals - the first thing that comes to mind is architecture. I'm more inclined to accept theory #2 than #1.

James, we have both red and green apples over here (and red/gold, and...). I bet you do over there as well. I just don't see "Granny smith green" in a LF pyro specimen.

Interesting statistics about the Czechs, Alfredo.

- Tracy

[James Catmur]

Tracy

Maybe not in an LF pyro I agree (even though I am colorblind) but how about some of the other localities, like El Horcajo or San Andres in Spain or Bunker Hill?

I must admit that I find #1 strange - I started to collect because I loved the forms and the colors did not bother me either way but my color blind siblings collected different things like train numbers or coins!

James

[lluis]

Hi, Alfredo/Tracy/James/list

I am used to the term apple green, even been spaniard (we have usually red apples...Or at least yellowones). I supposed ever that it refers to the young, not ripped ones, with a clearyellow that has a hint of yellow (sorry; in textile. Used to talk about blue reds and yellow reds and so.....)

I liked a lot of Alfredo for the japanese terms that exists...but many are not in a clear border... I always thought that we all see colors in a different way, just we use same word to name a thing that probably is differently perceived. I thought that we like one color or another because they produce a satisfactory stimulus when we saw certain, but not others.
Being just reward oriented, we prefer the ones that produce that reward....

And, certainly, probably if color blindness makes forms more apparent, colour blinds would make better crystallographers....and also better crystal collectors (mineral collectors)
It is said that good painters are all stereoscopically blind (I like to paint and draw...; not good. Just under average, being indulgent...... :-) )

Oh, I would like to see how another person see the world.
It would be probably so amazing..... :-) (I would never see world as the majority of you see it; you have an idea of how I see it, because i see world like a photo.....)

With best wishes

Lluís

[lluis]

Sorry, I tried to say for apples : a light green, with a hint of yellow.... :-)
Too tired... :-(

With best wishes

Lluís

[Aymeric]

Great topic !

I happen to be slightly color blind as well. I usually disintguish reds and greens, but some hues are hard to identify for me, depends also on the light conditions I think. Not long ago I took a look at some Pakistani diopside under chealsea filter and it was hell to determine the color, which was shifting from reddish to greenish , then redddish, then greenish again and so on. Agh ! I just gave up...
I have some difficulties with pinks, sometimes seeing the color where there isn't. Some Goshenite crystals I have show a miky lower half. rather white with some hues, which I'm unable to clearly indeitify, one second I see greyish hue, the other second I see pinkish hue.

I have a small specimen which bears very deep blue small aqua crystals along with tinyy (sum-millimeter) garnet crystals. When I bought it, I saw the garnets to be of red color, then maybe 2 years later while having a close look at it, I saw the garnet to be of green color, eh ? I took an even closer look with a x10, and no doubt, those were of green color.
I thought that a specimen bearing deep blue aqua with some green garnet was something pretty nice and me to feel happy about my new "discovery" ! Few months later, having again a look at it, the garnets were back to their red color.

It doesn't bother me in everyday life, but as an internet mineral trader, it can be very annoying not to be able to determine which color you're having in front of you.

Aymeric

[lluis]

Hi, Aymeric

Could that be a trouble with metamerism?
In textile, metamerism refers to the change in perceived colour when illuminant changes (say, sunlight, bulb light, fluorescent light (and all fluorescents....). ....) A real trouble that makes life more interesting (and nerves more tense...... :-) )

With best wishes

Lluís

[Aymeric]

Greetings lluis,

NEver heard about metamerism before, thank you for widening my world ! ;)

I found out about my colorblindness 17 years ago during the army test days. We had a dozen of Ishihara plates supposed to show numbers, but I could see only two of them.
THe soldier who was in front of me asked me with big round eyes:
"Are you colorblind ?
- Well, I don't know
- Well, yes you are !"
According to different kind of tests I've done ont he net, my condition would be deuteranomaly which is about perception of greens.


Cheers,

Aymeric

[James Catmur]

I have known for as long as I can remember. My grandmother was colorblind (it is rare for a woman to be colorblind) so my parents expected their male children to be color blind. When I was small and drew pictures the leaves were often brown and the tree trunks green, so it was clear that I had inheritted the condition.

It does not bother me that much but the advent of cheap color printing means that there are many documents I see that I cannot read (I am so colorblind that traffic lights go red, red, white!)

James