We use cookies to show content based on your preferences. If you continue to browse you accept their use and installation. More information. >

FMF - Friends of Minerals Forum, discussion and message board
The place to share your mineralogical experiences


Spanish message board






Newest topics and users posts
06 Apr-17:12:51 Re: collection of sante celiberti - a mineralogical trip through italy (Sante Celiberti)
06 Apr-16:55:03 Re: favourite rhodochrosites? (Am Mizunaka)
06 Apr-16:27:21 Re: what did goethe collect? (Bob Carnein)
06 Apr-15:35:06 Re: favourite rhodochrosites? (David)
06 Apr-15:32:33 Re: favourite rhodochrosites? (David)
06 Apr-14:10:01 Stay at home - coronavirus / covid-19 - patience (Jordi Fabre)
06 Apr-13:46:13 Re: favourite rhodochrosites? (Don Lum)
06 Apr-13:41:54 Re: what did goethe collect? (Gerhard Brandstetter)
06 Apr-13:38:11 Re: don lum collection (Don Lum)
06 Apr-12:26:37 Re: favourite rhodochrosites? (Volkmar Stingl)
06 Apr-12:05:39 Re: what did goethe collect? (Jordi Fabre)
06 Apr-10:49:16 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Don Lum)
06 Apr-10:34:22 Re: favourite rhodochrosites? (Gerhard Brandstetter)
06 Apr-10:19:46 Re: favourite rhodochrosites? (Lluis)
06 Apr-10:01:44 Re: don lum collection (Don Lum)
06 Apr-10:01:40 Re: stay at home - coronavirus / covid-19 (Michael Shaw)
06 Apr-09:48:14 Re: stay at home - coronavirus / covid-19 (Dany Mabillard)
06 Apr-09:38:08 Re: stay at home - coronavirus / covid-19 (Dany Mabillard)
06 Apr-09:23:29 Re: favourite rhodochrosites? (Tobi)
06 Apr-08:50:35 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Volkmar Stingl)
06 Apr-08:23:36 Re: favourite rhodochrosites? (Gerhard Brandstetter)
06 Apr-07:36:16 Re: favourite rhodochrosites? (Tobi)
06 Apr-07:35:05 Re: collection of gerhard brandstetter (Gerhard Brandstetter)
06 Apr-05:59:32 Re: collection of volkmar stingl (Bob Harman)
06 Apr-05:47:50 Re: collection of firmo espinar (Firmo Espinar)

For lists of newest topics and postings click here


RSS RSS

View unanswered posts

Why and how to register

Index Index
 FAQFAQ RegisterRegister  Log inLog in
 {Forgotten your password?}Forgotten your password?  

Like
65549


The time now is Apr 06, 2020 21:32

Search for a textSearch for a text   

A general guide for using the Forum with some rules and tips
Is there any way to tell if the Elmwood Calcite i bought is TRULY from Elmwood Mine?
  
  Index -> FOR BEGINNERS: What is it? Where is it from?
Like
8


View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

tchai




Joined: 03 Dec 2018
Posts: 23
Location: NY

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 02:03    Post subject: Is there any way to tell if the Elmwood Calcite i bought is TRULY from Elmwood Mine?  

I bought a large calcite specimen the other day at a gem show, which was sold to me as elmwood and sold to me at an unbelievably low price considering its size. i know that there has been stellar beam calcites from elsewhere being sold as “elmwood calcite” because the latter is oftentimes much more desirable (ex. i saw a mindat thread on a viburnum calcite being sold as elmwood) and was wondering if anyone well-versed in elmwood specimens would be able to tell if my piece was sold to me correctly or not if i posted a few pictures of it. (edit: not asking for exact locality if it’s not from elmwood, in case that’s unclear.)
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Tobi




Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 3227
Location: Good Old Germany


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 02:28    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

Your're right: If you provide some photos I 'm sure we could tell for sure if your calcite is from Elmwood or not for those calcites are quite distinctive. I think some here in this forum are among the well-versed people you mention and no calcite from Viburnum Trend District should fool us when the question is Elmwood or not ;-)

But no chance without some pictures ...
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

tchai




Joined: 03 Dec 2018
Posts: 23
Location: NY

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 04:06    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

thank you for the quick reply! i felt the need to ask because i've seen some collector "newbies" post questions here that have been belittled by others. i've attached the photos. apologies for the quality - i'm using an iPhone 5 (the only camera i have access to). obviously not a perfect specimen and i won't be TOO disappointed if it turns out not to be elmwood - i think it's beautiful regardless and i'm very happy with it with the price i paid. if you'd like me to take more pictures of something specific, please let me know.

links i included showing similar growth on other elmwoods:

throwinstones (dot) com/products/12cm-golden-honey-calcite-crystal-twin-with-sphalerite-from-elmwood-tennessee-usa-17420

tigerowner (dot) com/nonfluorescents/elmwood/ELMER6102.JPG

edit: found another! instagram (dot) com/p/BAF6IzmJ3Ay/



IMG_3250.JPG
 Dimensions: 16 cm (at its tallest)
 Description:
full profile (weight is 1.4 kilograms)
 Viewed:  4899 Time(s)

IMG_3250.JPG



IMG_3252.JPG
 Description:
another angle of its full profile.
 Viewed:  4899 Time(s)

IMG_3252.JPG



IMG_3256.jpg
 Description:
close-up of its surface - looks (and feels) like side growth of many tiny crystals to me. not usually seen with elmwoods (i'm assuming the glassy luster is much more coveted) but doesn't seem to be out of question for the locality: https://throwinstones.com/products/8-3-inch-extra-large-golden-honey-calcite-on-sphalerite-from-elmwood-tennessee-usa-17421 and http://www.tigerowner.com/nonfluorescents/elmwood/ELMER6102.JPG
 Viewed:  4902 Time(s)

IMG_3256.jpg



IMG_3253.JPG
 Description:
crystal growing out of its side.
 Viewed:  4890 Time(s)

IMG_3253.JPG



IMG_3125.JPG
 Description:
 Viewed:  4884 Time(s)

IMG_3125.JPG



IMG_3123.JPG
 Description:
base looks to be recrystallized - self healed?
 Viewed:  4886 Time(s)

IMG_3123.JPG



IMG_3124.JPG
 Description:
there's a "hole" at its bottom (which has partially been cleaved) that is very suspicious to me - small remnants of matrix.
 Viewed:  4898 Time(s)

IMG_3124.JPG


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

Bob Harman




Joined: 06 Nov 2015
Posts: 669
Location: Indiana


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 07:02    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

Other than being large in size, which many Elmwood calcites are, I don't see any characteristics of your calcite being from Elmwood Tennessee. The cloudy off white color is not right for most examples. The cloudy crystal with the rough surface of the crystal, is really not of any large Elmwood examples that I have seen. The large calcites always have very smooth crystal faces.
I also do not think your example is from the Viburnum Trend in Missouri (which you mentioned).
As to where it is from, maybe China, but I really don't know. I would be surprised to find out that it is from Elmwood. I have never seen anything remotely like that from that location.
But one caveat; besides being cleaved with a nibbed termination and no matrix, which doesn't help in ID,ing a locality, your example seems to have been briefly acid etched as the crystal edges are just a bit rounded. Sooooo maybe it is from Elmwood????? BOB
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Scot Krueger




Joined: 02 Feb 2019
Posts: 7
Location: Massachusetts

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 07:35    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

This calcite does not look to have the properties that make Elmwood calcite sell at a premium to other localities. It shows none of the clear deep golden color at the tips, mirror-like faces or razor-sharp edges. It is entirely possible that it is actually from the Elmwood mine, as there is a range of quality in calcites from any locality, but just being from the same locality does not imply it should be valued at a premium. I would be more concerned about how this specimen has been treated, especially since it sounds like none of it was made clear by the seller. With some common minerals, like quartz, if a crystal is badly handled and gets scratched or bruised it is common for disreputable dealers to just polish the faces to make them look "like new" again. But close examination will reveal that they have been polished because the faces no longer show the small natural defects of real crystal faces. Most collectors abhor such polishing to restore the appearance of pristine condition. In the case of calcite, however, this is a far less common practice because the crystals are so soft and cleavable that the odds are that you would do more damage than good in trying to "repair" the damage. The surfaces would be very difficult to make smooth without inducing cleavage fractures and possibly even cleaving off the terminations. In the case of your crystal it is clear that someone was not happy with the look of the crystal surface, probably because it had been scuffed and chipped, and decide to give the crystal an acid bath to dissolve away the outer surface. These do not look like any natural calcite surfaces I have encountered, and definitely not from any Elmwood pieces.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

tchai




Joined: 03 Dec 2018
Posts: 23
Location: NY

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 08:41    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

this comment makes me so sad. i will take much better care of this piece than whoever owned it last.
Scot Krueger wrote:
This calcite does not look to have the properties that make Elmwood calcite sell at a premium to other localities. It shows none of the clear deep golden color at the tips, mirror-like faces or razor-sharp edges. It is entirely possible that it is actually from the Elmwood mine, as there is a range of quality in calcites from any locality, but just being from the same locality does not imply it should be valued at a premium. I would be more concerned about how this specimen has been treated, especially since it sounds like none of it was made clear by the seller. With some common minerals, like quartz, if a crystal is badly handled and gets scratched or bruised it is common for disreputable dealers to just polish the faces to make them look "like new" again. But close examination will reveal that they have been polished because the faces no longer show the small natural defects of real crystal faces. Most collectors abhor such polishing to restore the appearance of pristine condition. In the case of calcite, however, this is a far less common practice because the crystals are so soft and cleavable that the odds are that you would do more damage than good in trying to "repair" the damage. The surfaces would be very difficult to make smooth without inducing cleavage fractures and possibly even cleaving off the terminations. In the case of your crystal it is clear that someone was not happy with the look of the crystal surface, probably because it had been scuffed and chipped, and decide to give the crystal an acid bath to dissolve away the outer surface. These do not look like any natural calcite surfaces I have encountered, and definitely not from any Elmwood pieces.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
1
   

Kevin Schofield




Joined: 05 Jan 2018
Posts: 116
Location: Beacon NY

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 10:21    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

tchai wrote:
thank you for the quick reply! i felt the need to ask because i've seen some collector "newbies" post questions here that have been belittled by others. i've attached the photos. apologies for the quality - i'm using an iPhone 5 (the only camera i have access to). obviously not a perfect specimen and i won't be TOO disappointed if it turns out not to be elmwood - i think it's beautiful regardless and i'm very happy with it with the price i paid. if you'd like me to take more pictures of something specific, please let me know.

links i included showing similar growth on other elmwoods:

throwinstones (dot) com/products/12cm-golden-honey-calcite-crystal-twin-with-sphalerite-from-elmwood-tennessee-usa-17420

tigerowner (dot) com/nonfluorescents/elmwood/ELMER6102.JPG

edit: found another! instagram (dot) com/p/BAF6IzmJ3Ay/


Hi Tchai,

I purchased my first Elmwood calcite 35 years ago, and have been collecting calcites for longer than that. While that doesn't make me a world authority, it has given me a good overview of the types of material from that part of Tennessee, which produces calcite from three more-or-less interlinked mines in the same orebody (the Elmwood, Cumberland and Gordonsville). I would say with very high confidence that your calcite does not come from any of those mines. The reasons for saying this have all been posited by previous answers: the colour/lack of colour is wrong, the surface texture of a microcrystalline overgrowth is wrong, and the degree of etching, if it is natural, is wrong.

Having said that, I'm afraid I can't enlighten you as to the provenance of the piece! There are simply too many localities in too many countries producing calcite to be definitive.

Question: does that matter? If you are a "technical" collector, it is always good to have as much provenance information as possible...not only where it came from, but when, and who previously owned it. Your question here, and prior ones you have asked on this thread, suggest that you do indeed place some importance on those aspects, but is it equally obvious that you love minerals for their beauty and individuality. In this instance, you may just have to "settle" for that...but clearly this piece brings you joy in ownership, so whatever its lineage, you are a winner :-)

ps please don't ever feel intimidated to ask a question here. There are a few scolds who can be tetchy when pointing out that you may need to do a bit of background work to help us help you, but by and large we are all enthusiasts and amateurs who like to help.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Emi
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
4
   

Tobi




Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 3227
Location: Good Old Germany


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 11:17    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

Hi Tchai, your question is already answered, and I have to agree with Bob, Scot and Kevin: Having some experience in Elmwood specimens, I have never seen a calcite like that from Elmwood. Sorry to confirm that :-(
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

John Betts




Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 169
Location: New York City

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 11:20    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

It does not look like from Elmwood Mine or China or Viburnum Trend, Mo.

The site that produced large transparent scalenohedral crystals of calcite that matches closest was the Tri-State District near Joplin, Missouri.

Mexico and Hardin County, Illinois are the next most likely candidates.

_________________
John Betts
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

tchai




Joined: 03 Dec 2018
Posts: 23
Location: NY

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 11:36    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

that's okay! i bought the piece because i liked how it looked and i didn't think i'd ever come across calcite this large for such a cheap price again. thank you everyone for your answers!!
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

tchai




Joined: 03 Dec 2018
Posts: 23
Location: NY

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 11:59    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

in regards to locality... i did some research on what it might be. what are your opinions on gallatin county, montana? i'm mentioning this particular one because it's apparently known for "chevron" lines, which can be seen on this piece regardless of the acid treatment. i also saw some calcite from morocco that looked similar, but there wasn't a more specific locality than that. the specific one i saw was this: fossilera (dot) com/minerals/3-8-dogtooth-calcite-crystal-morocco--2
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Kevin Schofield




Joined: 05 Jan 2018
Posts: 116
Location: Beacon NY

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 12:06    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

tchai wrote:
in regards to locality... i did some research on what it might be. what are your opinions on gallatin county, montana? i'm mentioning this particular one because it's apparently known for "chevron" lines, which can be seen on this piece regardless of the acid treatment. i also saw some calcite from morocco that looked similar, but there wasn't a more specific locality than that. the specific one i saw was this: fossilera (dot) com/minerals/3-8-dogtooth-calcite-crystal-morocco--2


Hi Tchai, Kevin again.

This is not a Gallatin piece. Although they are characteristically scalenohedral, they are always in my experience a yellow colour of some shade and have a silky lustre that I suspect derives from some natural etching. They do not have the appearance of multiple micro-overgrowths that your piece has.

_________________
Veni, Vidi, Emi
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

tchai




Joined: 03 Dec 2018
Posts: 23
Location: NY

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 12:11    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

i should mention that the pictures were taken under artificial lighting last night. the color is more yellow in natural lighting.


FDD4733B-8F91-47E2-A65C-6BF5F09A6AE5.jpeg
 Description:
 Viewed:  4653 Time(s)

FDD4733B-8F91-47E2-A65C-6BF5F09A6AE5.jpeg


Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Scott A. Miller




Joined: 07 Feb 2019
Posts: 9
Location: Keokuk, Iowa, 52632

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 14:27    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

In the close-up, I believe I see a spherule partially exposed in the base of the calcite, does anybody else see this! If I can figure out how to enter a photo, I will submit something very similar that I found in a Keokuk Geode in 1986. These are referred to as, Keokuk Glassy Carbon Spherules and are intimately connected to impact events!
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Tom Tucker




Joined: 03 Dec 2009
Posts: 60
Location: Virginia

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Mar 10, 2019 15:20    Post subject: Re: is there any way to tell if the elmwood calcite i bought is TRULY from elmwood mine?  

I don't believe Red Cliff, Gallatin County, Montana calcite crystals are ever that large. They are often seriously weathered, and then then collector- enhanced with HCl.
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Bob Harman




Joined: 06 Nov 2015
Posts: 669
Location: Indiana


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jan 15, 2020 21:41    Post subject: Re: Is there any way to tell if the Elmwood Calcite i bought is TRULY from Elmwood Mine?  

In looking over this older thread and comparing the pictured Calcite example to one posted in the "Ten Thousand Club" section in the "Prices Again" thread started by Louis Friend, March 23, 2012, I see a very similar large Calcite posted on March 25 2012 by Jean Sendero about 2/3 down on page 1 of that thread. His 13 cm example was from Mina Los Remedios Mine, Taxco Guerrero, Mexico.

Could that be the location of the Calcite pictured here?? Maybe..... Bob
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   

Jordi Fabre
Overall coordinator of the Forum



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 4472
Location: Barcelona


Access to the FMF Gallery title=

View user's profile

Send private message

PostPosted: Jan 16, 2020 14:06    Post subject: Re: Is there any way to tell if the Elmwood Calcite i bought is TRULY from Elmwood Mine?  

Bob Harman wrote:
In looking over this older thread and comparing the pictured Calcite example to one posted in the "Ten Thousand Club" section in the "Prices Again" thread started by Louis Friend, March 23, 2012, I see a very similar large Calcite posted on March 25 2012 by Jean Sendero about 2/3 down on page 1 of that thread. His 13 cm example was from Mina Los Remedios Mine, Taxco Guerrero, Mexico.

Could that be the location of the Calcite pictured here?? Maybe..... Bob

This is the Calcite: https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/download.php?id=25768
(located in this post: https://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?p=22947#22947 )
Back to top
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Like
   
Display posts from previous:   
   Index -> FOR BEGINNERS: What is it? Where is it from?   All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1
    

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


All pictures, text, design © Forum FMF 2006-2020


Powered by FMF