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Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela
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Jean Sendero




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PostPosted: Sep 16, 2020 08:46    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

This fantastic new find is still delivering uncertainties when it comes to "is it real" or "is it fake"?

I received this week, the specimen shown below of the blue hemimorphite associated with with calcite rhombohedra.

I cannot think or imagine how one can fake the blue color of the hemimorphite without impacting the calcite? How to artificially add this color to the hemimorphite without impacting the calcite? The calcite, as you can see on the photo, is late and growing though or over the hemimorphite.

The late calcite overgrowing the hemimorphite and the various videos of in-situ material are pretty telling evidences that, in my opinion, these are not fake but the real stuff.

This said, I remain open minded and I would surely want to hear from those advocating that these are fake. What are the arguments other than the color being out of this world, almost unreal?

Cheers



1165psa - Hemimorphite Ojuela DGO.jpg
 Mineral: Hemimorphite
 Locality:
Ojuela Mine, Mapimí, Municipio Mapimí, Durango, Mexico
 Description:
July-August 2020 discovery of blue hemimorphite associated with calcite

6.5 cm across
 Viewed:  4095 Time(s)

1165psa - Hemimorphite Ojuela DGO.jpg


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Kevin Schofield




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PostPosted: Sep 19, 2020 15:10    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

FMI have been conducting lab tests, and will make an announcement on the results this coming Monday.

...keep an eye on their website and Instagram.

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Peter Megaw
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PostPosted: Sep 20, 2020 14:22    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

THE BLUE HEMIMORPHITES ARE FAKES! (AT LEAST SOME ARE)
Although we do not understand how the chemicals were introduced to give such a selective coating, there appears to be no question that most…if not all…of the blue hemimorphites were faked by somehow saturating pockets in place in the mine with Pthalocyanine Blue. This explains the description of the best color as “Windex Blue”…Windex is blue because it’s colored with the same stuff.
Pthalocyanine Blue has NO natural analog, but does contain copper. It is insoluble in water and acetone and is known for being remarkable colorfast. These features explain why the analyses and standard tests performed to determine if it was a blue secondary mineral failed to reveal the fakery.

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lluis




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PostPosted: Sep 20, 2020 15:06    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

Dear Mr.Megaw, List

Many thanks for info!

But then, I have even more questions....
If color is done with copper pthalocyanine, then, why is it that ONLY the hemimorphite turns blue?
Also, pthalocyanine is a pigment, that is not soluble in water,... so to be used as a dye, it should be "glued" over the piece... Easy to do with by example with an acrylic resin (or any other....)
But those, use to be soluble in acetone, or, at least, swallow with acetone...
And the Sa Duchesa Mine ones, as far as I know are genuine...

Maybe I am wrong in all, but could anyone explain to me what is wrong?

With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Sep 20, 2020 16:21    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

Daniel's full report with analytical data 1


Blue Hemimorphite analyses-1.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3462 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-1.jpg



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PostPosted: Sep 20, 2020 16:22    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

Daniel's full report with analytical data 2


Blue Hemimorphite analyses-2.jpg
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 Viewed:  3433 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-2.jpg



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PostPosted: Sep 20, 2020 16:22    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

Daniel's full report with analytical data 3


Blue Hemimorphite analyses-3.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3417 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-3.jpg



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PostPosted: Sep 20, 2020 16:23    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

Daniel's full report with analytical data 4


Blue Hemimorphite analyses-4.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3410 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-4.jpg



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PostPosted: Sep 20, 2020 16:29    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

Daniel's full report with analytical data 5-13
Sorry, forgot I could post as a single upload



Blue Hemimorphite analyses-5.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3398 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-5.jpg



Blue Hemimorphite analyses-6.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3402 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-6.jpg



Blue Hemimorphite analyses-7.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3401 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-7.jpg



Blue Hemimorphite analyses-8.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3401 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-8.jpg



Blue Hemimorphite analyses-9.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3401 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-9.jpg



Blue Hemimorphite analyses-10.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3402 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-10.jpg



Blue Hemimorphite analyses-11.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3401 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-11.jpg



Blue Hemimorphite analyses-12.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3405 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-12.jpg



Blue Hemimorphite analyses-13.jpg
 Description:
 Viewed:  3461 Time(s)

Blue Hemimorphite analyses-13.jpg



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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2020 03:39    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

In other words: fake.
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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2020 11:46    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

Yup, a fake. But we could call it Covidite so we remember?
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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2020 12:35    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

The color was indeed "too good to be true" so this does not at all surprise me - but if these hemimorphites were "Windexed" in-situ then there must be Windex in the matrix - and also one would think some coloration in the matrix.

Any explanation here? Maybe the Windex was sprayed on then washed off with something such that the color stayed on the hemimorphite but not on the matrix?

None the less, a good piece of detective work - we all owe a big "THANKS" to the analytic team.

bob
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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2020 12:44    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

I think they are still trying to work out how they windexed only the hemimorphites
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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2020 12:46    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

A Windex free Hemimorphite might be nice as a reminder of this whole saga
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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2020 13:14    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

Follow-up on the blue hemimorphites from Ojuela, Mexico. Here is Daniel Trinchillo’s original email on the subject and analysis:

Hello Everyone,

I am writing this email in an effort to share what Fine Minerals International has been doing regarding purchasing and subsequently analyzing specimens from the new "discovery" of blue hemimorphites from Ojuela Mine in Mexico.

Our first awareness of this find was around the first week of August. I was presented with a number of photos and videos from one of our sources who we have worked with for years. The videos and photos were to say the least shocking. The color was unreal, and the best pieces were composed of gorgeous hemimorphite fans up to 2" on matrix and in vugs, totally intact and pristine and the color WOW. Still until now I have not seen any examples that surpass the ones I purchased in my first group, and I was beyond excited to bring these to market and share them with our clients. They were packed and shipped to a lab for cleaning and trimming and until this day I still have not seen my samples in person, they actually only arrived a few days ago to the lab, more about those samples later in the email.

I was so excited about them I initially did not even question the color, I just plowed straight ahead into negotiations and bought them, and we spent a considerable amount of money. Over the weeks that followed I studied the videos and some of the samples in my lot, and a few had lovely opaque snow white calcite rhombs that were intergrown with blue hemimorphite. This fact was enough for me to believe their authenticity. I am not a scientist, I have only a strong depth of practical knowledge and good instincts. And so seeing the two species comingled and in an obvious natural association, where the blue was present on one species and not the other, I was "sold" so to speak, as I wanted to believe they were real.

I followed the discovery for the next two weeks and there were no additional pieces "found" or presented to my source. And so I thought I might have cornered the discovery, which was initially described to me as a small find that was just a single pocket and that I had purchased the majority of the material, certainly all the fine material. Then about third or last week of August, from different sources I was told that specimens of fine quality were already being marketed in the USA, and more and more specimens were coming from the mine. Obviously this peaked my interest and I began to inquire more about them. Through another source I was able to get see several groups of material and upon physical inspection, we noticed several characteristics that seemed for lack of a better word "wrong."

Easy observations were that crystals looks coated and had a film with a sort of iridescence to them. The smaller gemmy blades and flowers of crystals, those that were in books were evenly saturated while others, specifically the largest more opaque and whiter crystals had blue coloration that seemed like it was just forming in the cracks and penetrating inclusions. Others specimens had a coating on the matrix which was not initially noticeable, but when you broke the matrix you could see the surface was a bluish purple brown, very subtle, and then once broken the interior just mm/s under the surface was a fiery orange brown. Then we noticed crystals that were broken, where the broken end was blue in color, and then we broke a crystal just immediately beside it in half and the center was snow white and all the color was concentrated to the surface alone. And many of the samples had a "melted" look something that just looked again "wrong."

So after studying about 300 pieces for several hours, I realized that there were enough indicators that caused me to take pause and question the authenticity. Instead of acquiring more of these I decided to engage in understanding their authenticity. Tomek Praszkier ironically messaged me the very same day, which was the first day of the Denver show in Colorado and suggested I send samples to him for testing in Warsaw (results are not available yet) and as well to John Rakovan at Miami University - Ohio campus.

And so I did just that, knowing John well enough to call I explained that I was going to send him some 20 specimens of good size for the purpose of analysis and study. We officially contracted the university to perform the study and they agreed to do the work. The samples arrived by Monday the 14th and by Wednesday preliminary results were in. John analyzed them under strong magnification, 100x + and it was easy to see that the color was associated to a coating, sometimes entirely coating crystals evenly and in other instances in just sparse concentrations here and there. He confirmed that the coloring agent was on the surface of the crystals and not internally included in the crystals. Certainly some crystals had some internal staining due to the material infiltrating the open fractures and porous aspects of the crystals. Also visible was a blue powder here and there on several crystals, on the matrix and in various random places on the specimens.

What was also obvious was that the coating was super thin and in varied concentrations. John was aware of other testing being done by members of the community and they were unable to detect anything other than hemimorphite. John also noticed evaporation concentrations on the crystals, another indication that the color was a coating; if you imagine a solution drying off of a flat surface and the final wet spot where the material pools always holds the most concentrated coloring, and this was easily observed under magnification. So samples were collected of crystals that had the most saturation and accumulation on the surface and prepared for Raman spectroscopy. Another observation supporting a coating was when these crystals were harvested for analysis and they were plucked from stacks or tufts of crystals, the adjacent side car crystals were split off larger central crystals and the contact plane revealed perfect silhouettes of white where the material could not coat the surface. Indicating clearly that the specimens were coated and the material coloring them was not internally present in the crystals.

After final tests, the Raman pointed out a chemical that is a commercial organic dye as the coloring agent. The signature is undoubtedly the same material, and this material does not form in nature. The chemical is - Phthalocyanine, and you can read all about it in here on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalocyanine_Blue_BN As you can read in the description the material seems perfectly suited to produce such a result and is certainly what was used to color the samples that were submitted to Miami University. The samples were collected randomly from a lot of material that was accumulated over a month's time and came in several batches, so in our opinion a very good cross section of material on the market. The university performed a number of tests and explained that sampling using standard Raman spectroscopy would likely miss the material because it is in such low quantities, because it is such a thin coating. Miami University has access to 5 different lasers and is able to employ Resonance Enhanced Raman spectroscopy, and therefore it was able to be detected on not only the blue areas of the crystals but even on the areas that were poorly coated and still exhibited only a white color, images are in the report attached.

In conclusion the report that was issued is attached to this email, and has documentation about the tests performed and the findings. The material used is not naturally occurring in nature and is not the product of some post-mining occurrence. It was certainly introduced intentionally to create the desired result which was so convincing and welcome. If these were real this would have been a historic discovery. I mentioned earlier the samples I originally purchased only finally arrived to my agent, and upon arriving and seeing them in person, he too felt they were false from his instincts. He performed a very simple test, armed with baking soda and laundry detergent he mixed those together with water and took one of the best and most saturated samples and plunged it and swooshed it around for a few minutes. The result was an immediate coloring of the liquid, the last photo in the report, and of course blue. Furthermore a desaturation of the color of the test specimen by almost half its pre-plunged color intensity. So from my point of view and my company's official position, the samples submitted are clearly false, and likely those we purchased as well. And because they were sampled from a large swath of material randomly, we apply Occam's razor, that simplest explanation is the logical one and our company will not be marketing the specimens we purchased and will be taking a loss on those we acquired.

I have watched videos of specimens being collected, offered as proof of the specimens validity and have this to say. I did not really see a geode being opened, but more just specimens being collected. I did not study the videos intently for hours upon hours, but I can say that the videos are extremely poor quality. I have personally been in those environments dozens of times, and I take and regularly receive videos that are far superior in quality from such environments. And in one of the most recent videos a large specimen is collected and when it is finally broken loose from the pocket wall the color is confined to just the center swath of crystals and the sides where the specimen was connected on both sides shows white hemimorphites, another indicator. Questions are still at hand, how are they applying this material? How are they doing such a convincing job underground? Why are the calcites in combination unaffected and only the hemimorphite is preferentially coated? These topics are still under discussion and it will be sometime before we know for sure. But what is unequivocal is the coating on the samples submitted and tested belongs to a substance not found in nature, and clearly was added to color the specimens. Science is about absolutes, so it is not possible to say that some of the samples out there are not real and may have some other explanation to the origin of their color. Our company is not going to be doing any further analysis on this topic though, we feel the evidence is sufficient enough, and the material questionable to a degree that we cannot responsibly represent them to our clients. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if anyone feels otherwise about a sample they have I suggest they engage in analysis to determine their specific specimens authenticity. A last thing we are doing out of curiosity is to try and replicate the process, Phthalocyanine is readily available online and we are awaiting a delivery this week. We will perform some simple tests in an attempt to replicate the process that was done on the samples we submitted to the university, only on white hemimorphites, to see if the results and we will try on calcites as well to see if there is some easy explanation to why those were preferentially not coated.

I hope this explanation of our experiences and analysis of this material is helpful to the collecting community, and adds some information that allows dealers and collectors to better understand the material on the market. I am sad about this news, as I too, like I am sure many of you were excited to have such a special new discovery of material. I implore members of the community to have patience with each other and especially with the dealers who have marketed these specimens thus far regarding resolutions that will certainly take place. I am sure none of the dealers acted with malice and worse they were taken advantage of by opportunistic miners. Our company is not planning on engaging in further discussions on this topic and will not reply to responses to this email. Not because of a lack of interest, but we have nothing else to say and from a bandwidth perspective we do not have the resources to discuss this topic with the hundreds of interested parties. We leave that for the online forums that have been and will continue to discuss this topic. I have copied a large group of dealers, collectors and interested parties on this email so that it is surely to be widely received and shared. Please feel free to forward it to any other recipients you feel would be interested in the content.

Sincerely in collecting,

Daniel Trinchillo - President

Fine Minerals International
11 Progress Street | Edison, NJ 08820 USA

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bob kerr




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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2020 14:14    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

Thank you Daniel and Brent - I'm sure this whole event costs you financially but it most certainly doesn't impact your integrity.

As usual - if it seems to good to be true, it probably is

bob
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Jean Sendero




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PostPosted: Sep 21, 2020 16:07    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

Well,

That is it. Fake all the way.

How sad to see this. Although, I hope that someone can figure out how it was done without impacting matrix or calcite for that matter. The folks in Mapimi are surely becoming sophisticated when it comes to forgery.

Thank you Daniel Trinchillo for your perseverance and desire to find the truth.

Cheers

Jean
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PostPosted: Sep 22, 2020 00:37    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

I would sue the original sellers and claim all costs.
They wouldn't get away with it this easy. Otherwise this continues.
Mathias.
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PostPosted: Sep 23, 2020 09:03    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

I think it's time to boycott Mapimi material altogether. The only way the mine owner will help put a stop to it is if it hurts his pocket. He should be the one making statements saying the kobyashevite is fake and the blue hemimorphite isn't real. This has caused hundreds of thousands in damages to dealers. It was so big, it's hard to imagine miners, dealers, and the mine owner didn't know what was happening. Now there is talk of artificially colored adamite as well. I think the mineral world has a right to be wary of anything coming from that area from here on out.
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Daniel Peters




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PostPosted: Sep 23, 2020 10:21    Post subject: Re: Possible Fake: Blue Hemimorphite from Ojuela  

James,

Can you provide your source for the statement you made regarding the artificially enhanced or colored adamites, from Ojuela?

Curious, if this was a general statement someone made, or from a source with factual evidence of such debauchery.

If possible, can you provide the evidence that would support artificial enhancement or coloring of adamites?
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