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Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.
  
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Ning




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PostPosted: Feb 29, 2024 02:13    Post subject: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

About 5 years ago while travelling in Peru I came across a chunk of schorl coated in crystalline rose quartz from Brazil. I couldn’t find any other references of this find.

I recently purchased an indicolite tourmaline coated with way more saturated crystalline rose quartz from Afghanistan. I can’t find any references to this find.

I’m not new to mineral collecting but I am new to caring about where they come from. Where is the best place to find information about this kind of thing? Are there any other tourmaline rose quartz association finds?

Pics attached.



184740B4-EFE4-442E-9630-0578FE5741D6.jpeg
 Mineral: Tourmaline and rose quartz
 Description:
 Viewed:  2505 Time(s)

184740B4-EFE4-442E-9630-0578FE5741D6.jpeg



8970A481-2084-4AAF-BC04-48F31F4B1C88.jpeg
 Mineral: Tourmaline and rose quartz
 Description:
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8970A481-2084-4AAF-BC04-48F31F4B1C88.jpeg



77CBF574-3FC5-4820-A865-FFD5DC0FDFC3.jpeg
 Mineral: Tourmaline and rose quartz
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James Catmur
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PostPosted: Feb 29, 2024 03:21    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Let's see if anyone else can help you (I do not collect Tourmaline so not a subject I can help you with)
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Ning




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PostPosted: Feb 29, 2024 04:06    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Thanks! I’d love to find out more. 🙏
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PostPosted: Feb 29, 2024 08:34    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Try looking at this page as it gives numerous 'rose quartz' localities

https://www.gemdat.org/gem-3456.html
(link normalized by FMF)
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PostPosted: Feb 29, 2024 09:55    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

I used Mindat to search for rose quartz. Under associations there are listed 16 images of rose quartz with schorl. 12 of these would be of interest to this thread; all are from Taquaral, Itinga, Minas Gerais, Brazil.

Filtering the ~600 photos of rose quartz for association with elbaite or with tourmaline produced a handful of additional localities, but none of the images showed rose quartz crystals encrusting large showy tourmaline crystals like your specimen from Afganistan.

The reverse approach - searching tourmaline pictures for association with rose quartz is less satisfactory. The reported common associations do not include rose quartz, and the filtering approach returns all tourmaline with "rose" or "quartz" in the description. 45 images were identified, only one of which has rose quartz, as opposed to rose colored tourmaline with quartz or some other unwanted combination of "rose" and "quartz". This one image is of a specimen from Alto da Pittora, Minas Gerais.

This is clearly not an exhaustive search of all tourmaline, but Mindat is easily searched in this way and pretty comprehensive.

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PostPosted: Feb 29, 2024 12:27    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Hi, all

Just looking at what was said in last post, because I did same...
With same poor results.
Not finding in Mindat rose quartz in Afghanistan...
Then, maybe just fake items? Chinese are well known for having sold cinnabar in matrix that were just matrix glued pieces of cinnabar. Gluing rose quartz (or pink; one if for non crystals one; other is for crystallized one. I just do not remember the distinction said in Mineralogical Record many years ago) to a core of tourmaline... Not unlikely, taking in account that who did (name known... Should dig in MR... which I have not the urgency to do...) the glued cinnabar was an artist in that...
Sometimes, the easier answer is the good answer (Occam's razor, lightened.... I still think that hard one is true...)

With best wishes

LLuís
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PostPosted: Feb 29, 2024 16:29    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Both pieces appear to be forgeries, curiously both related to rose quartz
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Ning




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PostPosted: Feb 29, 2024 19:07    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Hi Jordi. Curious what makes you say that? How would I tell if they were forgeries? Would soaking in acetone loosen any glue?

It would be disappointing if they were, but I’d rather know for sure than not know.
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Ning




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PostPosted: Feb 29, 2024 20:31    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

lluis wrote:
Hi, all

Just looking at what was said in last post, because I did same...
With same poor results.
Not finding in Mindat rose quartz in Afghanistan...
Then, maybe just fake items? Chinese are well known for having sold cinnabar in matrix that were just matrix glued pieces of cinnabar. Gluing rose quartz (or pink; one if for non crystals one; other is for crystallized one. Just I do not remember the distinction said in Mineralogical Record many years ago) to a core of tourmaline... Not unlikely, taking in account that who did (name known... Should dig in MR... which I have not the urgency to do...) the glued cinnabar was an artist in that...
Sometimes, the easier answer is the good answer (Occam's razor, lightened.... I still think that hard one is true...)

With best wishes

LLuís


Hi LLuís,

Thanks for your reply. Just to confirm you’re suggesting that the rise/pink quartz could be cinnabar? The parenthesis are throwing my dyslexic brain off a bit. There was a big find of the highly saturated rose quartz a year or two ago. This was the best piece apparently.



867855A7-55EE-4565-A1BE-B3567541B731.jpeg
 Mineral: Rose quartz
 Description:
 Viewed:  2337 Time(s)

867855A7-55EE-4565-A1BE-B3567541B731.jpeg


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Ning




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PostPosted: Mar 01, 2024 04:18    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Hi Pete,

Thanks for your search and tips. I’ll have a look.

Cheers!
Pete Richards wrote:
I used Mindat to search for rose quartz. Under associations there are listed 16 images of rose quartz with schorl. 12 of these would be of interest to this thread; all are from Taquaral, Itinga, Minas Gerais, Brazil.

Filtering the ~600 photos of rose quartz for association with elbaite or with tourmaline produced a handful of additional localities, but none of the images showed rose quartz crystals encrusting large showy tourmaline crystals like your specimen from Afganistan.

The reverse approach - searching tourmaline pictures for association with rose quartz is less satisfactory. The reported common associations do not include rose quartz, and the filtering approach returns all tourmaline with "rose" or "quartz" in the description. 45 images were identified, only one of which has rose quartz, as opposed to rose colored tourmaline with quartz or some other unwanted combination of "rose" and "quartz". This one image is of a specimen from Alto da Pittora, Minas Gerais.

This is clearly not an exhaustive search of all tourmaline, but Mindat is easily searched in this way and pretty comprehensive.
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PostPosted: Mar 01, 2024 06:14    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Hi, Ning

No, I was not trying to say that pink quartz in your samples are cinnabar. They look to me as pink quartz.
Just that maybe it has been an "artist" work and pink quartz could have been glued to tourmaline.
Tourmalines are many times associated with quartz, just never seen any with pink quartz.
Or, another possibility is that pieces were found.... and an "artist" again have dyed the quartz to pink, with a solvent paint/ink...
The one you show from Afghanistan, looks to me like a Brazilian one (besides, very nice!).
Or if from Afghanistan really, could be also dyed..
I suppose that should have the item in hand, or better, do an analysis if pink quartz is really pink quartz (should have, if I do not remember badly, some impurities that are characteristic of it...)
Sorry not to be of more help...
With best wishes

Lluís
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Ning




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PostPosted: Mar 01, 2024 10:01    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Ok thanks. I’ve engaged a mineralogy and gemology lab in Singapore to test these for dying, glue and any other alteration/fabrication. Hopefully this will clear this up one way or another. I live in Thailand, so it’ll take me a while to get over there. Any other specifics I should be looking for?

They will provide a report for me. I’ll post the results here.
lluis wrote:
Hi, Ning

No, I was not trying to say that pink quartz in your samples are cinnabar. They look to me as pink quartz.
Just that maybe it has been an "artist" work and pink quartz could have been glued to tourmaline.
Tourmalines are many times associated with quartz, just never seen any with pink quartz.
Or, another possibility is that pieces were found.... and an "artist" again have dyed the quartz to pink, with a solvent paint/ink...
The one you show from Afghanistan, looks to me like a Brazilian one (besides, very nice!).
Or if from Afghanistan really, could be also dyed..
I suppose that should have the item in hand, or better, do an analysis if pink quartz is really pink quartz (should have, if I do not remember badly, some impurities that are characteristic of it...)
Sorry not to be of more help...
With best wishes

Lluís
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PostPosted: Mar 04, 2024 20:59    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Ok, tracked down the provenance of this a bit through about 4 hands to me from source. There were 3 that came out of the pocket. Tiny find. Reputable source. Photos of the other pieces attached.


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277ACE2F-CA55-46EC-AD5F-9120FCA7F8B8.jpeg



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 Viewed:  1888 Time(s)

BB2075A3-C6F9-466D-B53A-80AF85F362B1.jpeg


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James Catmur
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PostPosted: Mar 05, 2024 02:41    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

What is the locality? We can add it to the photos

Ning wrote:
Ok, tracked down the provenance of this a bit through about 4 hands to me from source.
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PostPosted: Mar 05, 2024 03:09    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Ning wrote:

Ok thanks. I’ve engaged a mineralogy and gemology lab in Singapore to test these for dying, glue and any other alteration/fabrication. Hopefully this will clear this up one way or another. I live in Thailand, so it’ll take me a while to get over there. Any other specifics I should be looking for?

They will provide a report for me. I’ll post the results here.


Let's await the lab's response; that will provide the most conclusive answer. As Lluís suggested, it's possible that the omission was not intentional but rather a result of someone along the chain possibly engaging in forgery.
Of course, it's also plausible that the item is entirely natural; nature often presents us with surprises. Let's wait and see what the lab's analysis reveals.
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PostPosted: Mar 27, 2024 05:03    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Jordi Fabre wrote:
Ning wrote:

Ok thanks. I’ve engaged a mineralogy and gemology lab in Singapore to test these for dying, glue and any other alteration/fabrication. Hopefully this will clear this up one way or another. I live in Thailand, so it’ll take me a while to get over there. Any other specifics I should be looking for?

They will provide a report for me. I’ll post the results here.


Let's await the lab's response; that will provide the most conclusive answer. As Lluís suggested, it's possible that the omission was not intentional but rather a result of someone along the chain possibly engaging in forgery.
Of course, it's also plausible that the item is entirely natural; nature often presents us with surprises. Let's wait and see what the lab's analysis reveals.


Just got back from the lab. I met with Tay Thye Sun, the owner of the lab and conductor of the tests. The lab can be found here: gemlab (dot) com (dot) sg his comments were:

He used several tests:

*Microscope - inclusion
*Prism spectroscopy - absorption spectrum
*Ultraviolet light - long wave
*Infrared spectrometer - check for tourmaline spectrum & any treatment
*Energy Dispersive X-ray Fluorescence technique - rose quartz

He gave me two signed certificates that I have attached to this post, he said he was convinced these specimens were unaltered. He used an infrared spectrometer to test for any polymer, there was none.

His comments on the schorl piece were:

“This tourmaline is encrusted by rose quartz. The contact zone between the tourmaline and rose quartz has white flaky micaceous mineral and some probably colorless quartz (need to analyze)”

Finally, he showed me two microscope photos (attached) which showed a tiny indicolite inclusion into the quartz. That’s the bit that gave him complete confidence to sign the certificates. He said the white stuff could be Boron Silicate.

Hope that clears up any doubts.



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Josele




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PostPosted: Mar 29, 2024 09:43    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

Indicolite and rose quartz are well known in Parun pegmatite field, Nuristan, Afghanistan, although rarely seen together.

https://www.mindat.org/loc-9019.html
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PostPosted: Mar 30, 2024 09:14    Post subject: Re: Trying to find information on rose/pink quartz and tourmaline associations.  

I see no reason to doubt these are natural, but the gemlab tests are meaningless with respect to the identity of the material.
Two diagnostic features of pink quartz are UV and heat sensitivity (rose quartz isn't affected by these). It is highly UV sensitive, more than any other quartz variety.
If it is not UV sensitive, it is some new material, colored by either inclusions or impurities (and of course, it is obviously not rose quartz, no test needed). If you want positive identification, you need to do EPR (phosphorous/aluminium color centers).

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